Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The Lone Ranger · 09-27-2002, 08:13 PM

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He certainly has made it extremely clear to us His power and glory.

Actually, that's just the point. You believe this because you already believe in God. I have no such belief, and I simply don't see how the Universe around us (impressive and even awe-inspiring though it is) is in any way shape or form suggestive of the existence of a god or gods.

The Universe simply doesn't seem to be aware of, much less to care about our existence. Something like 40,000 children under the age of 5 die every day of starvation, malnutrition (not the same thing as starvation), and preventable diseases. "Original sin" notwithstanding [no one today is in any way responsible for the alleged activities of people who lived thousands of years ago], I don't see how this is compatible with the existence of a God who cares about our well-being.

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agape love. period end of story. God is love. Can anyone explain how someone could love someone else "so much" that they would "gladly" give their life for them, or take punishment on their behalf - and such sacrifice could (would?) be the most deeply fulfilling act such person has ever committed. This is irrational.

If you love someone truly, so much that this person's welfare is more important than your own, then sacrificing yourself on his or her behalf is a perfectly rational thing to do. I've heard many parents say that they would willingly sacrifice their own lives to save their children. I have no reason to doubt them.

But why would "God" -- who made the rules in the first place -- need to "sacrifice" some aspect of himself in order to appease himself?

Supposedly, Christ (God) died for our sins. Why? It doesn't make any sense. If I commit a crime, and someone else volunteers to take the punishment for me while I walk away scot-free, is that justice? Of course not. No one can justifiably take on the burden of another person's crimes.

Besides, we get back (once again) to the crux (pun intended) of the matter. If God existed and was omnipotent, there would be no need for this crucifiction nonsense. All he'd have to do is snap his divine fingers and everything would be just Jim-dandy.

As for God being love, see the above comments regarding the suffering of innocents. As Edward Abbey said, "God is love? Not bloody likely."

If God personifies love, we're using a definition of "love" that I'm unfamiliar with.

Cheers,

Michael

RJS · 09-27-2002, 08:23 PM

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Actually, that's just the point. You believe this because you already believe in God.

Arghh - you picked the one sentence I strongly considered deleting for the reason you focused on it, but....

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I simply don't see how the Universe around us (impressive and even awe-inspiring though it is) is in any way shape or form suggestive of the existence of a god or gods.

I am speechless, sympathetic, and depressed by this statement.

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Something like 40,000 children under the age of 5 die every day of starvation, malnutrition (not the same thing as starvation), and preventable diseases.

and relative to billions of years or eternity, we all died at the same time.

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If you love someone truly, so much that this person's welfare is more important than your own, then sacrificing yourself on his or her behalf is a perfectly rational thing to do. I've heard many parents say that they would willingly sacrifice their own lives to save their children. I have no reason to doubt them.

I don't doubt it for a second. It is real. I am a parent. I just find it VERY interesting and worthy of exploration in one's journey.

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

The Lone Ranger · 09-27-2002, 08:40 PM

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I am speechless, sympathetic, and depressed by this statement.

Well, I have no reason to doubt your sincerity, so I thank you for the sentiment. Nevertheless, I don't see the Universe's existence as evidence for the existence of god(s) of any sort.

Evidently, the Creator did not bother to sign his work.

What I do know is that right now, I'm alive. All too soon, that will change. In the meantime, I intend to enjoy the one shot at life I have. The fact that it must end doesn't mean we can't enjoy the ride.

'Night,

Michael

beoba · 09-27-2002, 09:32 PM

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Originally posted by RJS:
Fair enough. Part of the problem that arises (as I have now found out), it that when I attempt to start a productive discussion with the board (i.e. my first post in this thread), within 12-24 hours I seem to have 10+ regular atheists trying to pelt me with questions.

You post to a thread and wonder why other people are also posting?

beoba · 09-27-2002, 09:38 PM

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Originally posted by RJS:
First, the agape love thing - that was really just late night rambling. Choose to ignore if you want (although I now know I repeat it below with even later night rambling).

Back on topic, the whole "finite creature" / "infinite punishment" thing. Well it is very hard to explain the concept to someone (people) who don't believe in God and the afterlife. But I'll try to give my perspective - and I'll refrain from the term torture (maybe weeping and gnashing of teeth

).

My personal belief is that our whole concept of time and space is likely to change at death (i.e. in Heaven and Hell there is no such thing as time and space, there just "IS") - remember the great I AM WHO AM

. This is not intended to be a scientific discussion or anything, just one guy's opinion....And how do I come to such an opinion. Well, there are a few things that I find beyond our ability to comprehend - not "explain scientifically" - comprehend (so please hold all comments about how you can understand and I can't).

The three things I think about are

1) time / eternity -

the fact this thread exists may be evidence of our inability to comprehend eternity. But eternity is incomprehensible. Anyone disagree? And it relates to "time". Everything we know relates to time, and we can't imagine a "forever". We can't imagine a being existing for all time both past, present, and future. I think this all changes at death - when we say "time, boy, that was a silly concept". I find pearls of insight when I think about our memory, where we can remember all of the past 10 years today, right now. I think our memory confuses "time" somewhat.

2) space -

Have we found the edge of the universe yet? Wow, it is big - especially compared to the size of the most important thing in your life (you). Billions and billions of light years, galaxies, blah blah blah.......this is totally beyond comprehension. I guess if we found the edge of the universe it might change, but for now it is still in the infinite category similar to "eternity' - incomprehensible. I think "space" goes away at death.

so I take the eternal timeline and the infinite space concept and say "what the heck am I all about". Being a theist, I say what is God trying to do here. He certainly has made it extremely clear to us His power and glory.

then I get to my third point

3) agape love. period end of story. God is love. Can anyone explain how someone could love someone else "so much" that they would "gladly" give their life for them, or take punishment on their behalf - and such sacrifice could (would?) be the most deeply fulfilling act such person has ever committed. This is irrational.

I could keep rambling and relate all of this to Jesus and the Bible, but that is likely best saved for another night.

Cheers.

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

How does the above post answer this question?:

"could you please explain how a God that is in any way worthy of respect -- much less worship -- would choose to torture someone for eternity for any crime whatsoever?"

wdog · 09-28-2002, 05:19 AM

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I guess a few things come to mind that cause disconnects in our conversations. Since you don't believe in God, you can't envision that your sins (including denying God) do in fact hurt God. So your arguments ignore the effect of your sins on the victim.

Similarly, to the extent one of your children just ran off and never wanted to even acknowledge you, would you let them go - even if you knew that if they had a relationship with you it would be great for them? If later they wanted to come back, would you accept them back?

If one of my children ran off, I could NEVER punish them for an eternity for it and i would accept them back at ANY time (i.e. after ). If they ran off sure it would hurt me, but to punish them? That would be a sign of weakness and a streak of jealousy, which curiously enough christians describe their god as but we mere mortals think it a weakness.

By using the extremes of things like brutal crimes, you have dodged this point. Children do things all the time that hurt their parents (so yes I can envision how a sin would hurt a god), we don't demand worship and some repentence ritual, and never would we inflict eternal punishment. This god of yours is pretty petulant would make a poor parent.

P.S. does anyone else ever have words automatically deleted from their posts? I think my Cybersitter is doing it but I'm not sure

[ September 28, 2002: Message edited by: wdog ]

RJS · 09-28-2002, 05:44 AM

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If one of my children ran off, I could NEVER punish them for an eternity for it and i would accept them back at ANY time (i.e. after ). If they ran off sure it would hurt me, but to punish them? That would be a sign of weakness and a streak of jealousy, which curiously enough christians describe their god as but we mere mortals think it a weakness.

By using the extremes of things like brutal crimes, you have dodged this point.

If you view hell as the "absence of God" (i.e. the absence of the parent because the child ran off) and less of "torture and punishment" the analogy will be closer to what I was thinking when it was written. And such thinking answers the following question - if you can envision a parent letting a "lost" teenager run off, never come back, and sever ties forever. My discussion on eternity was also related to the eternity part of the question.

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"could you please explain how a God that is in any way worthy of respect -- much less worship -- would choose to torture someone for eternity for any crime whatsoever?"

Walter_Mitty · 09-28-2002, 12:39 PM

First point:

Christianity has flip-flopped on the nature of hell for centuries. First it's Dante's inferno type torture, then it's separation from God.

If you buy into the later, then God was "separated" from himself for three days when he sent part of himself to hell.

No offense, but that makes about as much sense as a screen door on a submarine.

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Can anyone explain how someone could love someone else "so much" that they would "gladly" give their life for them, or take punishment on their behalf - and such sacrifice could (would?) be the most deeply fulfilling act such person has ever committed. This is irrational.

No, what is irrational is the whole notion of an omnipotent (all powerful) and omnisciencet (all knowing) being who somehow divides part of itself into three. Then, it sends 1/3rd of itself to hell for three days with the foreknowledge that "it" will bring itself back to life and finally send itself to heaven where it sits at the right hand of God--yet "it" is God!

Being omnipotent, said being could raise itself from the dead a million times over. Also, "the son" knows that in 3 days he'll be making irreconcilable appearences on earth. (i.e., Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, aka the <a href="http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/stone.html" target="_blank">synoptic problem</a>), eventually, to be lifted up to heaven.

When you get right down to it, this is not much of a sacrifice and makes no sense whatsoever.

[ September 28, 2002: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]

wdog · 09-28-2002, 04:27 PM

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And such thinking answers the following question - if you can envision a parent letting a "lost" teenager run off, never come back, and sever ties forever. My discussion on eternity was also related to the eternity part of the question.

No i can't envision that radorth, i would welcome them home at ANY time. Especially if would take the analogy more closely, that is the teenager is left alone with just a book (bible) to describe me, and must sense me via prayer and worship. To top it off I have a place called heaven that would be a great home, but if he doesn't worship me sight unseen then he can't come in.

In short my son can say he s me, slam the door on his way out, deny i am his father and whatever. I then would welcome him back home at ANY time, including in some afterlife. That 'sin' would never qualify for eternal, or permanent, seperation

I am much more merciful and reasonable than your kinda-sick god.

RJS · 09-28-2002, 07:29 PM

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No i can't envision that radorth, i would welcome them home at ANY time. Especially if would take the analogy more closely, that is the teenager is left alone with just a book (bible) to describe me, and must sense me via prayer and worship. To top it off I have a place called heaven that would be a great home, but if he doesn't worship me sight unseen then he can't come in.

In short my son can say he s me, slam the door on his way out, deny i am his father and whatever. I then would welcome him back home at ANY time, including in some afterlife. That 'sin' would never qualify for eternal, or permanent, seperation

I am much more merciful and reasonable than your kinda-sick god.

I think you misunderstood when I said "sever ties forever". It is the child in the example doing that. God will welcome you back - why the time to do that is while you are alive on Earth is part of the deal, and I cant explain why. It probably has something to do with love for love's sake, as opposed to love for fear's sake. But that is purely speculation.

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