Ierrellus

marduck--

If we can compare wild dogs with domesticated dogs, we should not attempt to rub a wild dog's belly. I contend that domesticated animals are neurotic from exposure to human idiosyncracies.
As pets, dogs have a difficult time marking their territory, figuring out their sexuality when neutered or figuring out what assinine trick they must do to get a reward.

IMO, they have found what they must do to please their feeders. Neurosis, with its constant begging for attention to self, seems to fit the pattern of dogs who have not yet given up to just lying around the house.

Ierrellus

Pangea

Isn't is a rough row to hoe? I grew up on a small farm and have hoed many a row in my day but I have never hoed a road.

Anyway, I personally couldn't care less if my dog is conscious or not. I do feel that dogs are capable of basic thought processes that have a direct impact on them. Does this mean they are conscious? I don't think so. My dog has no morals (she is a killer) and no sense of time. I certainly think my dog experiences love, happiness, fear, lonliness, and remorse. Hell my dog hugs me. Of course I know this is only because she learned as puppy that hugs are how we (me and hubbs) show affection. Now she will come up to me and get right up in my face and lay her head on my shoulder. So I put my arms around her and hold her and she loves it. Meaningless to everyone but me.

All I know is she is always happy to see me and I care more about her than most people I know.

I definitely think some other animals are conscious. African elephants are amazing creatures that not only have their own complete language but actually mourn their dead and care for their young in much the same way humans do.

My .02

John Page

But she doesn't kill everything, (otherwise you wouldn't be posting), therefore she must have some mechanism for discriminating. Conscious or not there seems to be some kind of moral evaluation going on here (within the dog's mind).

I think this reduces to "indiscriminate behavior is not conducive to survival". While animal language may seem poorly developed to us humans, surely there's some symbolic processing going on internally. Your elephant example is very thought provoking.

Cheers!

ksagnostic

To quote Homer Simpson...

DOH!

Wyrdsmyth

Is My Dog Conscious?

Kick him.

He's conscious now.

[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: Wyrdsmyth ]</p>

fando

I think animals definitely have some form of consciousness. Animal consciousness might not be as "aware" as our own, but they certainly share something in common with every other animal as far as senses go.

I like to say that we can emulate animal consciousness and behavior with high precision by getting high on drugs and/or alcohol.

If you think about it, there is sooo much in common between a furious, drunk Human and an Ape that gets heckled at the zoo.

Boro Nut

But have you ever rode a hoe?

Boro Nut

sullster

[QUOTE]Originally posted by marduck:
[QB]"One scientist humorously stated that animals have only four things on their "minds"--the four Fs--feeding, fighting, fleeing and sexual intercourse."

If you include drinking beer to that list, then it would accurately desribe innate human male traits.

jess

Konrad Lorenz wrote that he noticed that his dog was capable of lying--- that he would cover his mistakes.

He determined that this proved that dogs have self awareness and are capable of mildly complex thought.

Our new dog is a gossip--- he spends about an hour a day chatting with the neighbors dogs. Rascal, our old dog, never chatted. It is 'obvious' they are having a conversation.

I also know what our new dog (an 8 year old SPCA mutt) thinks most of the time--- 'my humans are SOOOOO DUMB!

just my 2¢

(jess, back from soma and bad backs... will come back slowly)

Marduk

Did someone mention elephants? Just caught a tidbit on TV about an elephant at the Texas Zoo that they taught to paint (her paintings go for over $3000) however it's the reason they taught her to paint I found relevant to this thread.
The elephant was bored, it would save it's food and take it down to the pond, lay out a trail of food from the pond and stand and wait for a duck to follow the food trail. Then she would stomp on the ducks! They tried putting out watermellons instead but she was uninterested so they taught her to paint to mend her nasty duck squishing ways. Clearly a complex thought process involved.

[ April 21, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]</p>