Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vinnie · 05-31-2002, 10:37 AM

From my readings I have heard that many (even moderate and conservative) scholars do not think the parable teaches anything about hell. It serves solely as an 'image of status-reversal (i.e, the last will be first).'

Vinnie

Mike Rosoft · 06-07-2002, 04:35 AM

Wordsmyth:

I have looked at the verses you provided. The trouble is that "Sheol" means "grave" or "underworld". It doesn't refer to hell in Christian sense, which the Jews didn't believe in.

Psalm 166 basically says "I was in danger of death, and God rescued me."

Isaiah 14 is a tirade against the king of Babylon. The prophet compares him to the morning star (Lucifer in Latin, Heylel in Hebrew). And just like the morning star disappears from the sky during a day, the he will disappear from Earth and end in the Sheol (i.e. die). As for "sides" of the pit, the prophet seems to be speaking figuratively.

Jonah 2 is again symbolic for danger of death.

One just has to study history a bit, use different versions than just KJV, and not to insist on a literal interpretation. (But, apparently, the original question was about literal interpretation.)

Mike Rosoft

Answerer · 06-07-2002, 05:02 AM

Guys, another question will be that where exactly is hell located or look like? Black hole? Hyper dimension? Planets? universe? does anyone else has an idea?

CX · 06-07-2002, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rosoft:
<strong>Wordsmyth:

I have looked at the verses you provided. The trouble is that "Sheol" means "grave" or "underworld". It doesn't refer to hell in Christian sense, which the Jews didn't believe in.

Psalm 166 basically says "I was in danger of death, and God rescued me."

Isaiah 14 is a tirade against the king of Babylon. The prophet compares him to the morning star (Lucifer in Latin, Heylel in Hebrew). And just like the morning star disappears from the sky during a day, the he will disappear from Earth and end in the Sheol (i.e. die). As for "sides" of the pit, the prophet seems to be speaking figuratively.

Jonah 2 is again symbolic for danger of death.

One just has to study history a bit, use different versions than just KJV, and not to insist on a literal interpretation. (But, apparently, the original question was about literal interpretation.)

Mike Rosoft</strong>

It seems pretty clear that if the ancient Hebrews had a conception of hell it was borrowed over from the Zoroastrians. That hell is a place of fire and cleansing but for a finite period before joining Ahura-Mazda in heaven. Sort of like a quick shower in the locker room before diving into god's pool.

The NT on the other hand seems to avow a further development of this concept wherein hell is no longer a place of cleansing, but a place of punishment. At some point this became an eternal punishment. The only concievable reason I can see for rejecting this interpretation is because one finds the idea of an eternal place of torment abhorrent. Even my parents who are born-again evangelical Xians dance around the hell issue.

excreationist · 06-07-2002, 06:05 AM

Some ReligiousTolerance.org articles:
<a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/aft_bibl1.htm" target="_blank">Liberal Christian views about OT Bible passages about Heaven, Hell, Annihilation, etc</a>
<a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/aft_bibl3.htm" target="_blank">Liberal Christian views about OT Bible passages about Heaven, Hell, Annihilation, etc</a>
<a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/aft_bibl4.htm" target="_blank">Conservative Christian views about Bible passages about Heaven, Hell, Annihilation, etc</a>

from <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/hel_bibl.htm" target="_blank">Passages about Hell in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament)</a>

Quote:

In the Christian Scriptures, one of the most common attributes mentioned about Hell is its high temperature:

- Matthew 13:42: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

- Matt 25:41: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." This passage relates to Jesus' judgment of all the world. [verse 46 says it is "eternal *punishment*]

- Mark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched." The reference to fire is repeated three more times in the passage for emphasis.

- Luke 16:24: "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." This is a plea described as coming from an inhabitant of Hell.

- Revelation 20:13-15: "...hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

- Revelation 21:8: "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." Brimstone is sulphur. In order for sulphur to form a lake, it must be molten. Thus, its temperature must be at or below 444.6 �C or 832 �F.

In spite of the flames, Hell is totally dark:
- Matthew 8:12: "But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness..."

- Matthew 22:13: "...take him away, and cast him into outer darkness."

- Matthew 25:30: "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness..."

Torturing prisoners with sulphur:
- Revelation 14:10: "...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb." The "Lamb" here refers to Jesus. It is not clear whether Jesus and the angels are present as torturers or merely as observers.

Worms -- apparently flesh-eating:
- Mark 9:44-48: "Where their worm dieth not..." The immortal worm is repeated three times in this passage for emphasis. One point of interest is that the author of Mark refers to "their worm" not to "the worms." That seems to imply that each prisoner has his own worm.

Extreme thirst:
- Luke 16:23-26: "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

Prisoner's reaction to the torment:
- Matthew 8:12: "...there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

- Matthew 13:42: "... there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

- Matthew 13:50: " there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

- Matthew 25:30: "... there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The torment is apparently for all eternity; it never ceases:

- Matthew 25:46: " And these shall go away into everlasting punishment."

- Mark 9:43-48: "...it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched" The unquenched fire is mentioned three times in this passage for emphasis.

- Revelation 14:11: " And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night..."

For OT passages see the other links.

[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]</p>

Koyaanisqatsi · 06-07-2002, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Veil of Fire:
So, correct me if I'm wrong... but nothing here suggests that humans will feel eternal pain from being thrown into hell. We see that it was made for "the devil and his angels", and that the FIRE never goes out... but it's also referred to as the "second death", which I would interperet to mean the death of the soul after the death of the Bible.

Your interpretation is clearly wrong on at least two levels, "possibly" a third...(he typed, coyly)

First, see

Quote:

Matthew 10:28: Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The the death of the soul (possibly the "second" death you refer to, but we'll see) is clearly meant to be an even more terrifying notion than just the death of the body. It does not mean a surcease of sorrow as is evident from the commandment to be afraid as well as the fact that what you are to be afraid of is the destruction of both body and soul in hell, the place we know to be so horrific that it would be better to pluck our own eyes out than to risk being thrown into.

Quote:

MORE: Thus, from all that, there's no evidence of an eternal painful concentration-camp-type place, just another death.

Again, the "other" death is the death of the soul in hell.

Remember that the NT authors were primarily writing from a Hellenistic bent and that they were trying to demonstrate that their God was the most powerful one of all; so powerful, in fact, that he can destroy not just the body, but also the soul in a place that is worse than Hades, which was the Greek construct of where the dead go in the after life.

So you see, the second death--the death of the soul in hell--is meant to be an even more terrifying a concept than the Hellenistic take on after life punishment.

Quote:

MORE: Unless I'm totally off-base, I see a distinct lack of Biblical justification for the doctrine of Eternal Torture for non-believers.

You are totally off-base.

A few relevant verses:

Quote:

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Compared to:

Matthew 25:41-46:
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The eternal punishment of fire is not just for the devil and his angels, it is also for the "goats;" those who did not help their fellow man.

But what about, specifically, the unbelievers you referenced? What is their fate?

Hmmm...

Well, let's first see how the NT separates the believers from the unbelievers:

Quote:

1 Timothy 5:8
If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

One who does not do good unto his own family has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Considering what happens to those who do not do good unto strangers (they will go away to eternal punishment) and that those who do not do good unto their own relatives are worse than unbelievers, what the hell do you think an unbeliever's fate is?

Let's look further for the NT take on what it means to be an "unbeliever":

Quote:

2 Corinthians 6:14-15
14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common?

What was that before about the righteous? "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

So, unelievers are representative of "wickedness" and believers "righteousness," and we know that the righteous receive "eternal life," and the wicked, apparently, "eternal punishment?"

Is there more we can glean in order to clarify this?

Quote:

2 Corinthians 6:14-15 cont'd: Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?

Since we know that believers receive eternal life and unbelievers are the polar opposites, where does that leave the unbeliever?

Quote:

Luke 12;45-47:
45 But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk.
46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47 "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows.

Doesn't look good for the unbeliever, does it? But is there a definitive passage that tells us precisely whether or not unbelievers are condemned just because they don't believe?

What do you think?

Quote:

John 3:18:
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

It is unequivocably clear that the "righteous" are the believers and they receive eternal life and the unbelievers are the wicked and they receive eternal punishment.

Now, what about the second interpretation of the "second death" I mentioned earlier?

First, the source of the notion of the "second death":

Quote:

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Did the author of Revelation mean that the Greek place for the dead (Hades) was to be thrown into the lake of fire? That seems odd. An entire location is thrown into the lake of fire? Didn't he mean that the contents of Hades (i.e., the souls) are to be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death in keeping with Matthew, who tells us to fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in a place called "hell?"

Well, going back a bit in Revelation, we had this little tidbit that makes it all very clear:

Quote:

Revelation 6:8
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Now Revelation 20 makes sense:

Quote:

Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

But, isn't there an even simpler meaning of the "second death?" Doesn't God tell us directly what the "second death" really is? I mean, anybody can interpret these words any way they want to, right? Destruction could very easily mean annihilation, right? The second death certainly sounds like it would be an end to suffering, right?

Well, let's see if anything in the future can help us finally clear up exactly what the "second death" truly is:

Quote:

Rev 21:5-7:
5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.
7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

So, even after everything is new again, there will still be a place for the unbelievers; in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

This is the second death.

Got it?

(edited for formatting - Koy)

[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

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05-31-2002, 10:37 AM	#11
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	From my readings I have heard that many (even moderate and conservative) scholars do not think the parable teaches anything about hell. It serves solely as an 'image of status-reversal (i.e, the last will be first).' Vinnie

06-07-2002, 04:35 AM	#12
Mike Rosoft Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Prague, Czech Republic Posts: 965	Wordsmyth: I have looked at the verses you provided. The trouble is that "Sheol" means "grave" or "underworld". It doesn't refer to hell in Christian sense, which the Jews didn't believe in. Psalm 166 basically says "I was in danger of death, and God rescued me." Isaiah 14 is a tirade against the king of Babylon. The prophet compares him to the morning star (Lucifer in Latin, Heylel in Hebrew). And just like the morning star disappears from the sky during a day, the he will disappear from Earth and end in the Sheol (i.e. die). As for "sides" of the pit, the prophet seems to be speaking figuratively. Jonah 2 is again symbolic for danger of death. One just has to study history a bit, use different versions than just KJV, and not to insist on a literal interpretation. (But, apparently, the original question was about literal interpretation.) Mike Rosoft

06-07-2002, 05:02 AM	#13
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Guys, another question will be that where exactly is hell located or look like? Black hole? Hyper dimension? Planets? universe? does anyone else has an idea?

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