Philosoft

Read carefully, I'm not describing the "atheist position" as a default. I'm talking about the way we think in all situations except when we're specifically thinking about a hypothetical purpose for the universe. Humans live their days as if there was no purpose because knowing or believing that there is purpose is irrelevant for 95% of most of our daily activity. The alleged nuances of each individual belief don't matter if both beliefs are functionally identical.

The Messiah

I interpreted this statement as implying that the "default position" is "the universe has no existential purpose" as a statement of fact, that I believe cannot be currently established. I don't see how reading the statement more carefully could avoid this conclusion unless

this posting on this bullentin board is not part of the 5% of daily activity where "knowing or believing there is a purpose" is relevent.

Synaesthesia

himyname
Oxygen cannot be seen. However, it is a theoretical entity that parsimoniously produces very detailed and coherent predictions about the world. God theory is a vague network of ad hoc jerry rigs. It's not useful to poke holes through God simply because the theory is so preforated, such an act would miss the essentially flawed nature of the theroy!

The theoretical concept of God, as with all undetectable spooks, devils and fairies, provides exactly as much information as no theory at all.

Philosoft

Messiah, are you deliberately misunderstanding? Since the universe has not been shown to have a purpose, one must either act as if it does or act as if it does not. Since the notion 'purpose of the universe' has no effect on, say capitalism, I consider it a default position to behave as if the universe had no purpose whether one believes it has a purpose or not. Only during religious or philosophic moments does 'purpose of the universe' have any conceivable bearing on one's train of thought. The 95%-5% split was just hyperbole meant to demonstrate that humans in general don't go around actively believing in a purposeful universe most of the time.

The Messiah

I think we're both getting board so let sum up and knock this thread on the head. This is a discussion board called 'Existence of God', believing there is/is not a purpose to the universe, I assumed, is important to any discussion that takes place here. I completely agree that for the vast majority of the time its utterly irrelevent.

My point throughout has been that one should NOT act as if the universe does or does not have a purpose but act according to the third and only position that is not based on conjecture i.e. one does not know. It is a detail but its impact is very significant, particularly here.

Devilnaut

This is pure silliness. Messiah, would it be accurate to describe you as fairly inflexible in regards to your unbelief in say, the tooth fairy? Would this inflexibility be due to your bias against the notion of the tooth fairy's existence, or based on the fact that there isn't any actual evidence that the tooth fairy exists? Are you a *little* sure that the tooth fairy doesn't exist, fairly sure, or very sure? Would you consider it irrational to be "very sure" that the tooth fairy does not exist?

Keep in mind the following:

-the strength or confidence of and in one's belief should be relative to the perceived probability of the statement's truth.

-the perceived probability is based on evidence.

I am going to *assume* that you agree with those two statements. If you don't i guess we have a lot more to talk about.

Atheists generally perceive the probability of a given god-concept to be very low or at least fairly low, therefore they disbelieve in the existence of said god-concept with some amount of confidence.

.... and you think this is bad because ..?? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Devilnaut

Messiah, for the record, (and I suppose this is just my opinion here)... there is no difference between the statements "I do not believe in God's existence" and "I believe that God does not exist". I think this may be the crux of the problem. Belief is binary, which is why Atheism is indeed the default position. Just as the default position for you, before I explain to you why I think that there are aliens on saturn, is that you believe they do not exist.

Jobar

Clutch, that's one of the clearest and most cogent explications of strong/weak atheism I've ever seen. Bravo!

Jayhawker Soule

Great play on words.

Act how? What is distinctive and significant about acting in such a manner? And do you truly maintain that naturalism and supernaturalism are similarly conjectural?

Clutch

Jobar, thanks!