Horia Plugaru

Scarmig:

This argument is already "taken". See Richard Schoenig's superb article "The Idiot's Guide to Salvation", The Humanist, jan/feb 2000.

Horia.

Horia Plugaru

ManM:

First of all, this "general ressurection" view of heaven is not embraced by all Christians. In fact, I don't even think that it is accepted by the most of them. As Dr. Michael Martin says in his <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/michael_martin/xtianity_absurd.shtml" target="_blank">Is Christianity Absurd?</a>: Therefore, even if you are right that those who believe in the "general ressurection" idea do not have reasons to commit suicide, my argument still works for most Christians.

Second, even if this view about heaven would be accepted by most Christians, I do not think that this would be a problem for my ASC. If I understand you correctly, you say that Christians who die now will still have to wait for the general ressurection to be close to God, so there is no reason for them to kill themselves now in order to be with God as soon as possible. However, I suppose that Christians also think that in the time interval between their death and their ressurection, they are not conscious (in this interval they do not exist anymore). Hence, they cannot wait to be close to God because in order to wait for something you must exist and be conscious.
So, even if the "general ressurection" is adopted, a Christian who kills himself will immediately find himself in heaven. You will have to wait to meet God only if you continue to live this life--when you exist and are conscious.

Horia.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Horia Plugaru ]</p>

ManM

Horia Plugaru,
I believe Dr. Michael Martin and yourself are incorrect in identifying the scope of your audience. I have never personally come across a Christian who believes we go to heaven or hell at the instant we die. Many people believe in a purgatory, or purifying state after death. As you have indicated, others believe it is analogous to sleep.

And the idea that I should kill myself so that time seems to move faster is not very convincing. I know that what I do will not speed things up in reality. Do you think an added 50 or so years of sleep is better than those 50 years of life? Life in heaven will be better than this life. Sleep is not better than this life.

Bree

I wonder who he interviewed. The vast majority of Christians I know believe in the general resurrection.

Horia Plugaru

I wonder who you interviewed. The vast majority of Christians I know believe in the disembodied-view of heaven. Moreover, scholars like Michael Martin and <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/steven_conifer/mbd.html" target="_blank">Steven J. Conifer</a> apparently agree with me.

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Horia Plugaru ]

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Horia Plugaru ]</p>

Horia Plugaru

ManM:

First, when I cited Dr. Martin my point was that the "general resurrection" view of heaven is not accepted by most Christians. If you wanted to say that Christians will still have to wait to meet God even if they commit suicide no matter whether they believe in this view or in the disembodied view of heaven, then what's the point of referring only to the general resurrection?!

Second, it is hard to know how many people believe in purgatory. Most Eastern Orthodox do not accept it--I know, I live in an Eastern Orthodox country--, Conservative Protestants do not accept it and Liberal Protestants have a similar attitude. At any rate, my ASC still works for all those who reject this "intermediary" state--and they are not just a few at all.

Third, and more importantly, even if most Christians would accept some kind of a purifying state after death, they still should commit suicide. If they choose to live this life, the time period between the present moment and the moment they meet God is longer (life+purgatory) then if they kill themselves (no more life, only purgatory). As my ASC shows, Christians should desire to meet God as soon as possible. Therefore, they should commit suicide.


When you are conscious and wait for something with great intensity for a long period of time, this wait is very painful. If, however, in this time interval you do not exist--or are sleeping (probably dreaming a peaceful and pleasant dream)--this wait is not at all as painful. On the contrary. So yes, I definitely think that such a sleep is preferable for a Christian than living this life.

Horia.

Horia Plugaru

Just because your cousin commited suicide (if this is indeed what you want to imply) doesn't mean that suicide is objectively immoral.

ManM

Horia Plugaru,
The Nicene Creed ends: "We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

Are you (and your atheist sources) telling me that most Christians do not agree with the theology behind this statement? But in the long run, it isn't really worth debating. Your argument will apply to whom it applies to. That list does not include me, or any other Christian I know.

No. Let's say that the general resurrection will occur in 500 years. If I kill myself right now, I will be in an intermediate state for 500 years. If I die in 50 years, I will be in an intermediate state for 450 years. In either case, I won't make it into heaven for 500 years. It is not shorter either way. The choice I am faced with is simply between 50 years of life or 50 years of whatever the intermediate state may be.

Here you claim that my 50 years of life would be less desirable than 50 years of sleep. Have you noticed that I could spin the argument full circle? I suspect you personally believe that there is nothing after death. So why is it that you believe your life is better than nothingness?

There is no potential in sleep. I will not have the opportunity to experience joy, beauty, or pleasure. And while there will also be pain and suffering in life, I find it far better to experience all these things than nothing at all. You may disagree, but note that it is a matter of your opinion and not a philosophical necessity.

ManM

I just came across something you might be interested in.

This was written by Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos, an Eastern Orthodox clergyman. If the kingdom of God begins in this life, an Orthodox Christian does not need to commit suicide to be close to God.

Horia Plugaru

ManM:

<a href="http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_immortal_soul.htm" target="_blank">Here</a> we can read: Notice that whether this disembodied view of heaven is the correct one is of no concern for me. My point is that a large number of Christians (I still think their majority) accept it. The fact that important scholars (atheists or not) confirm this finding says much. But fine, let that aside.

You are forgeting an important fact: in this life, you intensely desire to be close to God. You can hardly wait to meet him! (Of course, whether this is correct is another matter, but since I see that you do not attack ASC's P1 - P4 I assume you accept them.) Therefore, the more you wait, the more this wait is becoming painful until it very probably becomes intolerable.
If, on the other hand, instead of agonising, you won't feel anything or you will dream a peaceful and pleasent dream, it seems rather obviuos to me that you should choose this latter state or kind of existence. (Remember also the saying: "Time flies when you're having fun". I suppose you know what I mean.)

Again, the same essential fact is overlooked. Since I do not have the strong desire to meet God, I do not have any reason to suffer so much until I die. So I do not have any reasons to kill myself. (Read also part (I) of my first post in this thread). But yes, of course, if I will have excruciating pains (or intense suffering), and know that only death could "save me", then you bet I will commit suicide, therefore preffering nothingness instead of such a life.

As I see it, if ASC's P1 is correct, you cannot say "there will also be pain and suffering in life" but, in fact, "there will be mostly intense pain and suffering in life". And when I put it this way, I don't think you are right anymore.

[At any rate, very interesting discussion. It's a pleasure debating these things with you.]

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Horia Plugaru ]</p>