Stephen T-B

“The point I was making,” wrote Radoth, “is that seeing God appear or do a miracle makes no difference in character, or tendency to rebel. So your post misses the point entirely.”
You were also making another point (the one I was remarking upon) - that some parts of the Bible are credible and some aren’t. Have you discussed this with your fellow Christians who take the Bible as the literal truth?

You believe those stories about god showing himself to the Israelites because “God does all kinds of gracious things, maybe for the sake of a few sincere people.”
So why isn’t he gracious enough to show himself to all of us today, “maybe for the sake of a few sincere people”?
Answer: you don’t know. You can guess, but you can’t know because you cannot know the mind of god.
From where I stand, your god looks profoundly inconsistent - and if there is one consistency in the Bible and the beliefs it gives rise to it is their inconsistencies. Which is so odd, considering how very, very, very consistent the whole of Nature is. Why did an inconsistent god create something so rigorously consistent?
Just another of his manifold inconsistencies, I suppose?

I am intrigued by this: “You may find it hard to believe people will still rebel, but some honest atheists here have already admitted that is the case.”
Admitted they would rebel against what, exactly?
Doing as god instructed them as in Leviticus "1: And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2: Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3: If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4: And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
5: And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
6: And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.
7: And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:
8: And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
9: But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
10: And if his offering be of the flocks, namely, of the sheep, or of the goats, for a burnt sacrifice; he shall bring it a male without blemish.
11: And he shall kill it on the side of the altar northward before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall sprinkle his blood round about upon the altar.
12: And he shall cut it into his pieces, with his head and his fat: and the priest shall lay them in order on the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
13: But he shall wash the inwards and the legs with water: and the priest shall bring it all, and burn it upon the altar: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
14: And if the burnt sacrifice for his offering to the LORD be of fowls, then he shall bring his offering of turtledoves, or of young pigeons.
15: And the priest shall bring it unto the altar, and wring off his head, and burn it on the altar; and the blood thereof shall be wrung out at the side of the altar:
16: And he shall pluck away his crop with his feathers, and cast it beside the altar on the east part, by the place of the ashes:
17: And he shall cleave it with the wings thereof, but shall not divide it asunder: and the priest shall burn it upon the altar, upon the wood that is upon the fire: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.”
And so on and so on, ad infinitum (including all those complicated dietary laws)?

I’d be inclined to say: “Come on - what’s all that for?”
Or are you talking about rebelling against the Ten Commandments? We might not remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy, but I don’t think you’ll find many of us who, having seen god, would go away and say “I’m not doing nothing that guy says,” and start killing people, or stealing from them or being generally anti-social and unpleasant.
How do you perceive our “rebellion,” in concrete terms?
I am very interested in your answer.

HelenM

But how do you even define 'bad decision'? If you're rich and I can kill you and steal all your money and not get caught, is that a bad decision or a good one? It certainly leads to my great financial gain. Would a smart person do that or not? I don't think intellect is the only issue when it comes to human behavior. People disagree over whether a decision is good or bad and I don't see how being smarter would help.

I think a more likely response is that people can't be ultimately happy without submitting their wills to God. So there can be no such place as the substitute heaven you depicted.

Ooops...I didn't - sorry

take care
Helen

HelenM

It depends how you define proud. I define it as having to do with a person's attitude about others and based on my definition I know of a number of Christians I'd say are proud - using the word as you do, to mean 'arrogant'.

I think Christians deceive themselves into thinking they aren't proud if they give lip service to "I am submitted to God". As far as I'm concerned they are proud (in the negative sense of arrogant) if they think themselves better than other people. I've run into Christian speakers who have said/written things I consider very arrogant and also ones who have said things to me that indicate they believe I can have nothing worthwhile to say compared to their vast knowledge of the Bible

Helen

Rhea

Radorth, I would like an answer to this question. What is with the snide insults. Is this What Christ tells you to do? It's not very productive. Do you really think I have not spent more than 10 minutes in this discussion with you? I would like an answer to this one - what do you suppose would be my reaction to this statement? Would I say "discussing this with Radorth is so interesting" or do you think I would say something else? So: two questions, 1) would Jesus do this? and 2) what reaction do you expect from the inclusion of this comment? (among many other snide inserts of yours - is Christianity "working" for you?)

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I am talking about when we have someone making bad choices because they are not mentally equipped to make good choices all of the time, we supervise them. Down Syndrome people, especially those at the severe end, are generally supervised throughout their lives. To help them live safe lives and lives that are not detrimental to society. That's what I mean by maintaining boundaries. I never said lock them up. Why are you going there and sounding like this is some cruel state? Are you saying you DON'T agree to lifelong supervision for the retarded? You think they should be "allowed" to get robbed and raped? And perhaps commit crimes because they don't have the wisdom for good choices?

No, I'm not changing premises at all. People who have mental limitations are CARED FOR by society because they can't do it themselves. We "force" them to be "good" by removing their ability to choose bad. I don't know about you, but _I_ consider this to be a GOOD action. Humane, caring, loving. We're not turning them into Robots, we are calling them _happier_ when they can be cocooned in an environment where only good choices are possible.

I guess perhaps you and I view a "god" concept differently. I assume you are defining him as infinitely more wise than me. Therefore he would be able to cocoon me in safety because he is wiser than me.

Why have you mentioned this AGAIN? No one here is saying that. So of the 6 billion people on this planet, a few of them think this way. Are you SURE you're willing to paint us all with the brush of a few? Is that how you'd like us to view Christians?

Good grief, radorth, you are, like, the KING of not understanding "do unto others". Is the way you write and treat others REALLY the way you want to be treated? **shakes head, blinks eyes**

Who said this? Where did this come from? If you are going to ADD tangents to the discussion, could you please give a quote? You've done this several times and there is no evidence that it is anything other than either 1) a deliberate straw man or 2) the rantings of someone with a persecution complex or 3) the rantings of someone who has no fundamental understanding of the opponent's view.

You keep veering off topic to introduce these unsubstantiated accusations of our world view. If you're going to accuse ALL OF US of sharing some terrible opinion, the LEAST you could do is show that even ONE of us has actually SAID it!

Stephen T-B

(Thinking ‘bout rebellion...
If God appeared to me as I was cycling home, and I was persuaded I wasn’t hallucinating (you know, lots of people rushing out to have a look, all pointing and more or less agreeing it was God they were seeing and not some hi-tech stunt being pulled by the owners of a new coffee bar-restaurant) and He said something like “Stephen T-B, I am God. Jesus was my Son. Believe it,” I’m sure I would.
If He then said: “I want you to love and obey Me,” I’d probably say “I’ll do my best, O Lord.” But if He then said: “I want you to take your first-born to Hill 69 in Roundhay Park and sacrifice him to me,” I’d tell him it was something I’d need to discuss with my wife first, because if she found out what I’d done and hadn’t agreed it was a Good Thing, she’d undoubtedly sacrifice ME, right there in the kitchen.
Or if He said :”Stephen T-B, Leeds United is my Chosen Football Team. They’re playing Spurs next Saturday and are likely to be defeated so I want you take the jaw bone of an ass” (or perhaps “an Uzi Sub-machine Gun”) “and slay the entire Tottenham Hotspur team, right down to the Third Groundsman and Second Assistant Team Masseur,” I’d probably say something along the lines of: “| don’t mind sacrificing the occasion chicken, if that’s what You want, but sorry, I just don’t do wholesale massacre - not for You, not for anyone.”
So I end up being cast into the raging fires of Hell for all eternity, and Radoth is proved completely right about atheists being a rebellious bunch of wicked infidels.)

HelenM

I'm not sure I've asked Radorth this question but I have asked other Christians a similar question. As I recall, they usually respond that it's ok because Jesus called people vipers and hypocrites.

(At which point I generally think to myself "yeah, but you're not Jesus!" )

I have quoted this verse to them:

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect [...] (1 Peter 3:15)

but evidently Jesus' manner of dealing with 'unbelievers' as recorded in the gospels, takes precedence over that verse.

Then there's Douglas Bender's response "I'm holding up a mirror to you".

I agree that it's counter-productive; I think it's equally counter-productive when atheists post in that manner but at least they don't claim to be under the authority of a book which I think says such behavior is inappropriate. So they aren't violating their own proclaimed standards in doing so.

Helen

Stephen T-B

Sorry, sorry SORRY. That last post of mine was facile, irreverent and inappropriate, and if Radoth requires me to delete it, I shall, provided he tells me how he perceives the atheists’ “rebellion,” in concrete terms.
I really don’t understand what this rebellion consists of.

HelenM

I thought it was funny

Although it presents a view of hell that most Christians would disagree with - hell is not a place where people who believe in God but don't 100% obey Him, end up. I doubt any Christians, if honest, would claim they've never deliberately disobeyed God.

The rebellion means people rejecting the idea that their lives belong to God and are not their own - it means people living their own lives their own way instead of asking God "How do you want me to live?"

That's different from someone who basically believes in God but questions a command from God which seems to involve senseless cruelty. Really, if God is who Christians say He is, I would think He'd be pleased with anyone who would object to doing something that seemed senseless and cruel, to them.

Helen

Radorth

And I'd say the same thing. It is not cause for God to send anyone to hell. (See Roman 14) You are just picking and choosing the worst possible scripture to refer to, always from the Old Testament. Well at least you would answer differently than the aver age rebel without a cause.

Rad

Radorth

Oh yeah Helen. You show even less respect than some atheists here and then act holy about it. As far as I'm concerned, you're a great friend of the world. You notice I don't say much about it until you climb on your soapbox. You INVARIABLY start these little comparative discussions. Have you noticed?

OK Helen "Friendship with the world is enmity with God." You are not only friends with it, you're yoked to it. But you see where this leads, holy one?

And yes it is mirroring. And anybody who, after much discussion, asks me inane questions like "should we show kids how good drugs are" is deserving of whatever snide remarks I can think of. I gave sincere answers to Rhea's questions, at first , but all she can do is invent more and more stupid ones. This is no different than a personal insult, and in fact patronizing questions are worse I think.

But we all have our stuff, don't we.

Rad