Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Calzaer · 04-03-2003, 03:01 PM

Quote:

But what is your source for negative effects specifically of REM-deprivation?

Ummm...

*sheepish*

Ok, ok, you win.

I thought I saw it on the Discovery channel... I went and looked it up when you asked and discovered it was a Star Trek:TNG episode.

I feel really silly.

echidna · 04-03-2003, 03:31 PM

Kally, I�m disappointed you deleted your longer post in this thread. IIRC it was somewhat complimentary certainly not as dismissive of Jung as many sceptics make out.

Which is where I sit. Science struggles when dealing with the unquantifiable and the unmeasureable, & it always will. Words like pseudo-science will always emerge when studies move into areas such as psychology & psychiatry where concepts & thoughts are the staple medium.

But this makes the study no less valuable. At many levels the human brain operates very abstractly & dream research is a window into this operation, but at the same time one which is mainly applicable to anecdotal study instead of hard clinical and statistical research. Personally speaking, I�ve been fascinated by some very fitting Jungian explanations as to some of my own dreams, which surprised me as to my own conscious unawareness of my subconscious, almost like finding a self within my self, like unlocking a conundrum which had been bothering me.

To date, Science can only make broad guesses as to the role & neurological understanding of dreams as abstract concepts. Certainly it seems a very long while before objective science can draw any meaning from a particular dream, something which on occasion dreams do possess, and yet this is something Jung seems to have subjectively managed almost a century ago. Jung may not be scientific & his interpretations do not serve as a complete explanation of human psyche, but at the same time his work cannot be dismissed just by calling it unscientific. Stating dream understanding as unscientific speaks more of a limitation of science than of the other attempts to understand the behaviour.

Nowhere357 · 04-03-2003, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marlowe
No offense, but try reading some books on Jung and Jungian analysis rather than just what's on the net. As great as the internet is, it hardly gives you a full view of what is important in psychological theory.

This was directed at me. I've read basic theory, and I haven't said he was wrong.

echidna · 04-03-2003, 03:49 PM

As a child I used to have a recurrent nightmare that our family of 4 were taking a drive down a long and windy ocean road. With myself & my sister safely buckled in the back seat, we were driving downhill towards a sharp righthand bend in the road. When suddenly both parents opened their doors and jumped out of the car, leaving myself & my sister careering towards the cliff when the dream would end.

And for maybe 10 years I simply remembered this dream vividly, without attaching any meaning whatsoever. A completely meaningless firing of neurons ? I find it very hard to believe given my parents� prolonged and bitter divorce starting when I was age 5.

While I can accept that many dreams are meaningless, I cannot accept that they are all meaningless. Proponents of this, would seem to be discounting the very existence of the subconscious in the human psyche.

Nowhere357 · 04-03-2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ps418
You claim to have shown that dreams allow access to creativity -- you've shown no such thing. People spend a a third to a quarter or their lives in various sleep states. By far most of our creative moments and moments of insight occur when we are awake, but it is hardly a surprise that sometimes this happens in a sleep state.

I didn't claim that dreams are the only access to creativity, or the best access.

Nowhere357 · 04-03-2003, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by echidna

While I can accept that many dreams are meaningless, I cannot accept that they are all meaningless. Proponents of this, would seem to be discounting the very existence of the subconscious in the human psyche.

Exactly. Dreams are a valid subject for study.

echidna · 04-03-2003, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nowhere357
Exactly. Dreams are a valid subject for study.

Where Jungian study suffers, is that being so subjective and unscientific, it is also completely open to crackpots, wannabes & fraudsters. Those who transform Jungian study into a shrine, prescribing uninformed meanings which may be utterly inappropriate, and asserting that every dream must have a meaning, clearly discredit Jung's work.

Viti · 04-03-2003, 04:18 PM

When I am under certain types of stress (specifically work related) I always dream I am back in high school and haven't attended class all year, or don't know where my room is...I have read this is a common dream for adults...so I also think some dreams have significance if not real meaning that can be interpreted.

ps418 · 04-04-2003, 06:40 AM

Sure, some dreams have "meaning." How could that possibly be controversial? For instance, someone is sexually frustrated and dreams about sex. It is a simple wish-fulfillment. Or you dream that your child is hurt in a car accident, which simply reflects your fears. Dreams can sometimes have intelligible "meaning" just like waking thoughts can. What I am skeptical of is that a pretentious analyst can pour over your dreams (at great financial cost) like they're some sort of psychological heiroglyphics and derive some kind of objective or therapeutically useful information that was not fairly obvious to the dreamer in the first place (as opposed to some deep, occult meaning).

Patrick

ps418 · 04-04-2003, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marlowe:
No offense, but try reading some books on Jung and Jungian analysis rather than just what's on the net. As great as the internet is, it hardly gives you a full view of what is important in psychological theory.

Quote:

Ps418:
No offense, Marlowe, but try asking me about where I get my info before you make such totally erroneous assumptions about where and how I have developed my views on Jung.

Marlowe, please accept my apologies. I did not read carefully enough, and wrongly thought that your comments above were aimed at me.

Patrick

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04-03-2003, 03:31 PM	#42
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	Kally, I�m disappointed you deleted your longer post in this thread. IIRC it was somewhat complimentary certainly not as dismissive of Jung as many sceptics make out. Which is where I sit. Science struggles when dealing with the unquantifiable and the unmeasureable, & it always will. Words like pseudo-science will always emerge when studies move into areas such as psychology & psychiatry where concepts & thoughts are the staple medium. But this makes the study no less valuable. At many levels the human brain operates very abstractly & dream research is a window into this operation, but at the same time one which is mainly applicable to anecdotal study instead of hard clinical and statistical research. Personally speaking, I�ve been fascinated by some very fitting Jungian explanations as to some of my own dreams, which surprised me as to my own conscious unawareness of my subconscious, almost like finding a self within my self, like unlocking a conundrum which had been bothering me. To date, Science can only make broad guesses as to the role & neurological understanding of dreams as abstract concepts. Certainly it seems a very long while before objective science can draw any meaning from a particular dream, something which on occasion dreams do possess, and yet this is something Jung seems to have subjectively managed almost a century ago. Jung may not be scientific & his interpretations do not serve as a complete explanation of human psyche, but at the same time his work cannot be dismissed just by calling it unscientific. Stating dream understanding as unscientific speaks more of a limitation of science than of the other attempts to understand the behaviour.

04-03-2003, 03:49 PM	#44
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	As a child I used to have a recurrent nightmare that our family of 4 were taking a drive down a long and windy ocean road. With myself & my sister safely buckled in the back seat, we were driving downhill towards a sharp righthand bend in the road. When suddenly both parents opened their doors and jumped out of the car, leaving myself & my sister careering towards the cliff when the dream would end. And for maybe 10 years I simply remembered this dream vividly, without attaching any meaning whatsoever. A completely meaningless firing of neurons ? I find it very hard to believe given my parents� prolonged and bitter divorce starting when I was age 5. While I can accept that many dreams are meaningless, I cannot accept that they are all meaningless. Proponents of this, would seem to be discounting the very existence of the subconscious in the human psyche.

04-03-2003, 04:18 PM	#48
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	When I am under certain types of stress (specifically work related) I always dream I am back in high school and haven't attended class all year, or don't know where my room is...I have read this is a common dream for adults...so I also think some dreams have significance if not real meaning that can be interpreted.

04-04-2003, 06:40 AM	#49
ps418 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 1,840	Sure, some dreams have "meaning." How could that possibly be controversial? For instance, someone is sexually frustrated and dreams about sex. It is a simple wish-fulfillment. Or you dream that your child is hurt in a car accident, which simply reflects your fears. Dreams can sometimes have intelligible "meaning" just like waking thoughts can. What I am skeptical of is that a pretentious analyst can pour over your dreams (at great financial cost) like they're some sort of psychological heiroglyphics and derive some kind of objective or therapeutically useful information that was not fairly obvious to the dreamer in the first place (as opposed to some deep, occult meaning). Patrick

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