diana

I'm also interested in how you prove this to yourself if no one can prove it to you.

Which begs the question of whose "greatest commandment" it is, doesn't it?

Perhaps for you. It depends on the definition of "love" one applies here, doesn't it? I haven't noticed any Christians loving their enemies or child molesters or drug dealers or muggers to the extent that they'd offer them a meal or a place to stay for the night. But then, I don't love these people to that extent, either. I love them to the extent that I have compassion for them, so I am not compelled to torture them, but I still won't withhold any warranted punishment, either. When you think about it, my love for these people--the love of an atheist for the undeserving--is just like God's love for these same groups, no?

No faith required. Just human empathy and compassion.

Slow down there. You expect nothing in return? You don't expect to avoid eternal torment? You don't expect to spend eternity in the opulence of Heaven when you die?

Fair enough. Facing life with no faith in a being that will be there for me and take me to Abraham's bosom when I die isn't so easy, either. I can identify.

Given my 'druthers, I'd rather see Ghandi in others.

Right. But is it possible that something would convince you God doesn't exist after all?

What would it take to convince you God doesn't exist?

d

haverbob

Hi d.

Guess who's back? It's Captain Crunch, the logic cereal killer. Sorry, my response will be serious and brief. If God is "possible", than there is nothing that an atheist can say to disprove God or convince a theist, agnostic that God doesn't exist. They can only offer conjecture and not proof. Therefore one must say that God is "impossible" to prove to a theist, agnostic that he does not exisits. If you can say that, the argument ends right at that moment and the theist, agnostic will be proven wrong. That's a tough thing to do. Many have tried for thousands of years with no success. But who knows? There are alot of bright people in this area. Maybe someone will surprise me.

Wyz_sub10

Of course not. But what can be proven through logic is the consistency of the definition of, say, the J/C god, and the surrounding reality.

So I cannot prove no god exists, but it may be possible that god defined as 'a' cannot exist.

Sorry, I doubt exactly understant the above, but if you are saying that it is not likely possible to disprove god, then I think most people would agree.

Of course, it is also not likely possible to disprove that the sound of barking dogs sounds like Liza Minelli to everyone but you.

yguy

Perhaps the question would be better directed at those atheists who obviously feel that need.

yguy

I have presented anecdotal evidence which I thought would illustrate the point. Obviously, that didn't cut it for you. Sorry - best I can do for the moment.

Eric H

Hello Diana,
quote
d Given my 'druthers, I'd rather see Ghandi in others.
-----------------------

Ghandi is certainly one of my biggest hero’s. He was a remarkable man who seemed to believe in finding peaceful solutions to conflict. A story about Ghandi that inspires me, is when a Hindu friend of his tells him that he has killed an innocent Muslim child and that he will be condemned by his God.

Ghandi offers the solution that his friend should adopt a Muslim child, and bring him up as a Muslim father would bring him up.
As a Hindu his friend would then have to try and understand the Islamic way of life, so that he could bring up this child as a Muslim.

Anyway getting back to the Christian God,


Diana Quote:
Slow down there. You expect nothing in return? You don't expect to avoid eternal torment? You don't expect to spend eternity in the opulence of Heaven when you die?
=================


The motivation behind an act of kindness has to be right, If I do it because I am expecting a reward in heaven, then I am acting in my own interest, and this would be wrong from my way of thinking.
If I put the other person first then it means I should look for ways of helping them in the way they need support.
My present job is supporting people with a learning difficulty who need a lot of help with day to day life.
If I tried to treat them as I would want to be treated myself, I would be getting it wrong most of the time. So I feel that I have to make an effort to find out how they would like things done for themselves.
None of this comes easy, apart from becoming a hypocrite at times.



quote Eric: No one can prove to me that God exists; I have to prove it to myself in some way.


quote Diana: I'm also interested in how you prove this to yourself if no one can prove it to you
===============

It is trying to find the words that will make any sense to another person, ‘prove’ to myself ‘convince’ myself are sort of the right words.

In the early days of searching for a God I was fairly sure he existed, maybe eighty percent sure. But that is not good enough, because it means to me that there is possibly a God.
If there is a possibly God, that means I don’t have to do anything, there is still reasonable doubt

No amount of reading or talking to people can make up that doubt, at some point I just had to say God exists totally, It is almost like wanting God to exist, and having a need for a God.

Up until the time I said God exists totally, the Bible was just a bunch of words that had no real meaning for me. This happened at about fifty, now I do find meaning in the Bible.
I do try and look for the best in all people.


quote Diana: Right. But is it possible that something would convince you God doesn't exist after all?
============

I suppose if I doubted that God was not a God of love.

Yes I have followed the thread of the flood, when God killed everyone, and I have read in the old testament of whole tribes of men women and children being killed in the name of the lord.
Despite all this I still have faith that God is a God of love.

Peace

Eric

Wyz_sub10

There are some aspects about Ghandi that seemed a little hypocritical to me, but that's best left for another thread.

I think this is a fair way to put it. A decision is made based on want and need. Most Christians I have known - including my parents - fall in line with this.

Is this because of want and need again? Do you feel that you are ascribing these values to god because you believe that it must be thus? (IOW, the bible's message isn't as consistent with what you have come to know as love, so you hold fast to the idea that this love exists in god.)

MollyMac

Hi Eric
I understand from this that you are not necessarily looking for a reward in heaven, but apart from that I don't see your point. What has acting with normal human empathy and compassion got to do with believing in God?
What Wyz said. Your post is an illustration of the most extreme kind of faith, which appears to those of us who don't share it as a massive exercise in self delusion.
In spite of the evident indifference of God to human suffering, you still have faith that he is a God of love? Is there anything that would made you "doubt" this?

theophilus

Well, finally, you've hit the nail right on the head.

Of course, there are some people who "believe" because they have been presented with sufficient "evidence" to satisfy them.

This, however, is not Christian faith, since it is not based on the self-attesting revelation of God in scripture, but on an autonomous test of truth.

In this case, it is possible for a person to be "deconverted" if he is presented with sufficient counter evidence.

The true believer (Christian) cannot be deconverted because he understands that the revelation is the necessary foundation not only for "spiritual" truth but for all knowledge. Without it, knowledge is impossible, and therefore, it cannot be disproven by "evidence" becuase no evidence is possible.

All atheistic claims to truth/proof are meaningless.

Mageth

The true believer (Christian) cannot be deconverted because he understands that the revelation is the necessary foundation not only for "spiritual" truth but for all knowledge. Without it, knowledge is impossible, and therefore, it cannot be disproven by "evidence" becuase no evidence is possible.

So, how does the True Believer come to this "understanding"?