Seraphim

By lugotorix

Your bigotry and close-mindedness is showing again. Have you ever been to a Western country? I doubt it quite a bit, since your ignorance of the state of Buddhism here is astounding. For the most part, professors of Buddhist studies are not at all famous -- most of their work is published in scholarly journals that only other professors see. The most prevalent books in all of the bookstores I visit are all written by Asian monks -- the Dalai Lama, Thich Nhat Hahn, Master Sheng-yen, Sogyal Rinpoche, etc.

My reply : :rolleyes

Do a person have to be in another country before he could actually understand its people and its principles?
If the answer is yes, Have you ever been to the East? If No, then I assume you don't know anything about Buddhism since you never been here. If the answer is yes, which country and what year?

Buddhist studies? hmph ... what exactly is a Buddhist study?
In my eyes, that is like studying the road signs alone the highway but not bothering about the journey itself.

As for your example of authors, except for Dalai Lama, I don't know the rest, never read their books nor cared to read their books. WHY? Because the answer is MINE and mine alone to ponder, not them.


(I can't believe I'm even bothering -- I pretty much wrote you off the first time you started spouting your bigotry and prejudice. Too bad you have such a closed mind; you might actually learn something here otherwise.)

My reply : I will learn anything which is worth learning. Listening to "advices" from University Holymen are not something I wish to learn.
Gautama Siddaharta left his place to see answers, IF he behave like you people by expecting and accepting answers from others rather than choosing his own path, then we will not have Buddhism now.

[b]
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If you want to seek truth, follow your path to seek it. You expect someone to show you the truth, then you are not seeking anything but another excuse.
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I don't know what you think that is, but it's not Buddhism. This is:

My reply :
Hmph ... I will tell that to Gautama Buddha ... assuming of course I reach his plain of existence within this lifetime.


quote:
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It's for you to strive ardently.
Tathagatas [Buddhas] simply
point out the way.


Dhammapada XX, verse 276

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My question : Are those who are writing the book mentioned above considered to be Buddhas?
What is a Buddha anyway? You seems to have forgotten that part, mind telling me?

There you have it, from the Buddha himself. stating that Buddhas show others the path. Maybe it would help dispel some of your mistaken notions if you studied some Buddhist scriptures

My reply : He said he shows others the path, he never said he will help you walk on it yourself.

There is also another verse stating that Buddha instructed his students to ignore what is in the books since it is written by men and it is prone to mistakes.

How Buddhist you think you are? You still seems to be in shadows of Christianity.

Seraphim

You are [I]rascist{/I]. You are ignorant of the Buddha's teachings. You are ignorant about the west . You are ignorant about the east . You stick your nose in where you are not invited. You give terrible advice , completely unsolicited. Your english is bad . I hope you can understand what I am saying. Stick to ninjitsu.



OK, I have split your statements by italic, so going to answer one at a time.

1. Rascist? Nonsense ... I don't even know (OR Cared to know) what race you are. All I know is Westerners are still in shadows of their former "Masters" (Christianity and Desire to cling to Life) thus till you get over it, you are not qualified to call yourself Buddhist.

2. Ignorant of Buddha's teachings? Which one is that? About loving you guys means saying Yes to everything you say? That what you think is right is indeed right? That what your Campus Holymen and University Scholars say is better than finding your own answers? When you understand what Buddha said, then come back to face me.

3. Ignorant of the West AND East? Your western society is a Joke and you don't know a crap about East. Who is ignorant of what, you decide.

4. Sticking my nose into what doesn't concern me? Guess what? Buddhism concerns me. And since no one invited Buddhism to the West, no one needs to invite me to follow what concerns me either.

5. Terrible Advice?
If a medicine taste awful, does it mean the medicine is No Good?

6. My English is bad? Yes ... this is the ONLY thing I have to agree with you. Frankly speaking, I don't usually care how I speak, as long as the message in understood by others.

Seraphim

By Sarpedon

I am getting a little sick of these insulting posts from Seraphim.

My question : Sick enough to see how bad your society is? In the past 500 years, there is a great development in Technology, Politics and Economics, but in social stand point ... you consider it to be developed?

I would rather follow the advice of a scholar instead of that of a monk. The reason being is that clergy, whatever the sect, rely on the hard work of others for their support.

My question : Then do you still bother considering yourself Buddhist?
What IF this scholars gave a wrong descriptions or answers and you accepted it?
What IF this scholars gave descriptions which do not follow Buddhist teaching simply because he (personal opinion) thinks his way is better?

Will you still follow all this and call yourself Buddhist?
Following Buddha's words also is NOT Buddhism, it is taking his advice and use it to go through our life ... that is Buddhism. You expect someone else to drive your chariot, you will never reach the destination since the driver could take you else where.

A scholar supports him or herself through work. A clergyman depends on the support of others. Therefore, clergymen have always encouraged ignorance, passivity, and obedience from their lay followers.

My reply : Maybe your Priests does that.
Scholar supports themselves by "selling" their ideas and call it a new view of the old matter.
I don't know about Western Clergymen, but here in the East, Clergymen support themselves by praying for others and begging (something I have yet to see a Westerner do).

Don't try to pretend that buddhist monks don't defraud, fornicate, and molest, just like their "western" counterparts.

My reply : Those who are too attached to life does that, Yes ... I have read cases of such. But to say that ALL of them are doing it is BS. Maybe you should see beyond the cages of Christianity.

The reason that so many "westerners," like myself, are attracted to buddhism is, I think, because the clergy are superfluous. If one learns to meditate, reads the scriptures, and obeys them, it is not necessary to have priests.

My reply : From my view point, why westerners like you attract to Buddhism is because it is lack of restrictions which other religions such as Christianity has. In laymen's term, you leave one excuse to find another.

The buddhist clergy survives not by espousing the principles of buddhism, but by encouraging non-buddhist superstitions. Where in the scriptures does the buddha tell us to make offerings? Where does he tell us to build temples? Where does he tell us to ordain priests and to preform rituals? Rather than blindly following the teachings of those who have it in their best interest to deceive us, we follow those who, through study, try to get to the heart of the matter.

My reply : Baaga ....

Do you know why people makes offerings? Because Buddha begged from the people throughout his journey for food and clothings (NEVER money or items) which followed by his followers.
People gave them food and clothings in hope that it will lead them to better karma.

Buddha never told anyone to built him a temple nor worship him. His students made a place for themselves where they compile Buddha's words, study it, place where they do their meditation etc. The place you see now is called Monastery, NOT temple or Church.

Where you get the idea about ordaining any Priests and performing rituals? What rituals are you talking about?

And Yes, PLEASE do follow those who will study Buddhism for You (Sarcasm) because in the end, it will lead to the same path as it did with you and Christianity. It will give you too much questions and not enough answers and in the end, Buddhism in the West will be another religion that condemned by the future generations because this generations are too damn lazy to think for themselves.

I thought Atheists means "Those who seeks answers"? You are even an insult to Atheism.

We are skeptical of everyone who comes along claiming to have "the truth". Usually, these people are frauds. I determine the truth on my own. To help me I consult the works of scholars. I also peruse the scriptures of various religions, and primary philosophy sources. I generally ignore the works of priests, because they have shown time and time again that they cannot be trusted.

My reply : Your life, Your Path, Your Choice. Just don't blame ANYONE or ANYTHING when you reach a blind alley.

Now ask yourself, who is approaching this problem from a more mature and wise direction? The one who blindly accepts the words of the bald men? Or one who listens to everything, and makes his decisions based off everything he can learn?

My reply : Those "bald men" do have the rights to say what they feel, WHY? Because unlike the scholars who have not given up anything (this people still have houses, cars, wife, children and mistresses to screw around), those Bald men had given up everything and walk the Path of Buddha.

In my eyes, the Bald men are like soldiers who are fighting in the field (fighting against themselves - their Egos, desires etc) while this scholar are nothing more than Generals sitting in Air-conditioned room, drinking and eating in comfort of everything they know and cherish WHILE trying to figure out the proper strategy for a battle.
I'm a Warrior, I'll rather be in the battlefield fighting myself rather than behind some air-con wall talking about something I hardly know what.

Perhaps our society is "falling on its face, " but there are many societies that have never stood up to begin with. It is amusing to hear criticisms from those countries that try so hard to invent some reason to feel superior, when the evidence shows that there is no reason.

My reply : Which society is that? Society such as Indian society which had thousands of years of history and social developments?
Society like China whose technology were more advance than anything the West could cook up in those times?

Asia is indeed superior in everyway to the West. Matter a fact, it is not for the materials stolen from the East, your society could not have achieved as much development as it did now.
If it weren't from American's policy of eradicating the Indians toward the West, your society could have not developed to the point you see now. Maybe all those blood and bad karma is catching up to you now.

So, will you stop insulting me because of the color of my skin, or the region of my birth? Or will you continue to delude yourself and imagine that your dirtbag little country is somehow better than mine?

My reply : I don't care what color is your skin nor what country you were born. I've generalized all in the West as Westerners to show that I don't hold any race hatred to any particular people.

But yes, My heritage (Asian Heritage) IS indeed better since they have proven themselves throughout history. If you don't believe that, then just ask yourself where Buddhism came from.

Answerer

Well, since most of misinterpretation had been cleared by you guys, I only had a few things to say. First, Sarpedon, please don't associate the eastern monks with western clergy for they are two very different things. As far as facts go, most monks lived in seclusion rather than daily attachments to the troubled world.

Furthermore, the main task of monks is not to spread the teachings of Buddha, rather it is to practise the teachings of Buddha and again, this is something different from priests. In particularly, the monks in Asia often don't go around spreading teachings(unlike the priests), its usually the people, who are interested and sincere in their request, make those monks decide to share their knowledge with them. And some of the buddhist scholars get their knowledge in the Sangha community as well.

Next, I find it unfair that you generalized too much on the notion that monks are 'criminals'. To me, this statement is completely unfair and untrue to various sincere and 'genuine' monks that had lived over the past centuries over Asia.

lugotorix

So you're admitting that you don't attend to follow what monks or those who practise Buddhism by letting go of their desires and all had to say (your words from a previous post). These authors are all life-long monks who are extremely well-versed in the Dharma. I guess instead you're one of these "holymen" you were ranting about in this quote: This "holymen" comes out with books about their opinions and that is good enough to explain Buddhism or any other religion or principles. Which is it: are you espousing Buddhism and following the teachings of the Sangha, or are you spouting off your own opinions?
Seraphim, this shows just how ignorant you really are of Buddhism. The Dhammapada is one of the earliest works of Buddhism, and according to tradition, was spoken by the Buddha himself. How could you know anything about Buddhism if you don't even recognize one of its oldest and most-quoted scriptures?
Since you've betrayed a profound ignorance of even the most basic Buddhist texts, your opinion doesn't count for much. You and the author of the article referred to in the OP have an awful lot in common: you both know next to nothing about Buddhism and you don't let your ignorance stand in the way of spouting off.

Here's another quote from the Buddha for you. It reminds me of you quite a bit:
..to him who is delivered by understanding there are no follies; but those who grasp after signs and philosophical views, they wander about in the world annoying people.
The Buddha, in the Mâgandiya Sutta, from the Sutta Nipâta


lugotorix

lugotorix

Yes, it was a similar misguided post on another forum here that got me posting. Welcome.
Sorry, I don't agree. For starters, the idea that laypeople could be as spiritually advanced as monks is a pretty old one. A very early Mahayana sutra, the Vimalakirti Nirdesa, is about just such a layman. If I recall correctly, the movement that eventually became Mahayana started out as a reaction to the overly monastic emphasis of early Buddhism. There is also a Chinese text (the name of which I forget) that records quite a number of laymen who were acomplished meditators and considered enlightened. At least in the tradition I follow (Chan or Chinese Zen), there is as much emphasis on meditation and devotional services (chanting to Kuan-yin and Amitabha) as there is on morality and supporting the clergy.

Not that I think this is a replacement for full-time monastics. It's a vital part of the tradition, one that I hope will florish here.

Yes, you got me there. I guess the teachings actually do put forth this view. I was basically objecting to his implication that after a little bit of meditation, Buddhists will start acting like they're infallible. (Actually, from my experience, it has the opposite effect -- you start to notice a lot of fleeting thoughts that are fairly unflattering. Like lifting up a rock and finding all the bugs underneath....)

lugotorix

Seraphim

By Answerer

Furthermore, the main task of monks is not to spread the teachings of Buddha, rather it is to practise the teachings of Buddha and again, this is something different from priests. In particularly, the monks in Asia often don't go around spreading teachings(unlike the priests), its usually the people, who are interested and sincere in their request, make those monks decide to share their knowledge with them. And some of the buddhist scholars get their knowledge in the Sangha community as well.

My relief : Finally ... someone who is smart ...

Seraphim

So you're admitting that you don't attend to follow what monks or those who practise Buddhism by letting go of their desires and all had to say (your words from a previous post). These authors are all life-long monks who are extremely well-versed in the Dharma. I guess instead you're one of these "holymen" you were ranting about in this quote: This "holymen" comes out with books about their opinions and that is good enough to explain Buddhism or any other religion or principles. Which is it: are you espousing Buddhism and following the teachings of the Sangha, or are you spouting off your own opinions?

My reply : Correction ... I said I have never read their books nor do I know any of them (except Dalai Lama) whether in person or by reputation.
Did it say somewhere by Gautama Buddha that you only become a Buddhist when you associate yourself with other people?

As for your question, I follow what I felt is proper because I'm the one living in this world, I'm the one who facing the everyday challenges and I'm the one who is fighting the battles everyday, NOT Dalai Lama or anyone else.

Seraphim, this shows just how ignorant you really are of Buddhism. The Dhammapada is one of the earliest works of Buddhism, and according to tradition, was spoken by the Buddha himself. How could you know anything about Buddhism if you don't even recognize one of its oldest and most-quoted scriptures?

My question : What scriptures did Gautama followed when he left the castle and seek answers?
He was taugh Hindusm but instead dwelling in it and accepting it as truth (like what you are asking me to do with Dhammapada), he seeks the truth within the answers since the answer itself comes from word of Man which is also prone to mistake and misinterpretation.

I told you all before and I will tell you again ... Buddhism (like other religion and teachings) provides possible answers, how we use it is up to our own judgement. Religion and teachings (such as Buddhism) can make a person into a Saint or a Devil depending on how that person takes it.

Here's my question - You provide clauses and verses and all from Dharmapada. May I ask what is the difference now between Dharmapada and the Bible?

Since you've betrayed a profound ignorance of even the most basic Buddhist texts, your opinion doesn't count for much. You and the author of the article referred to in the OP have an awful lot in common: you both know next to nothing about Buddhism and you don't let your ignorance stand in the way of spouting off.

My reply : What I've betrayed is between myself and my consciousness ... thank you for your concern.
And Yes, my opinion do not count much since it is MY opinion.
However, thank you for understanding that the authors had no idea about Buddhism, it will be helpful when you read those books with a certain room in your mind for doubt and your own thoughts.

Here's another quote from the Buddha for you. It reminds me of you quite a bit:
..to him who is delivered by understanding there are no follies; but those who grasp after signs and philosophical views, they wander about in the world annoying people.
The Buddha, in the Mâgandiya Sutta, from the Sutta Nipâta

My reply : Does it really meant for me?

Oh well ... such answers cannot be given in short period of time, we have to spent a lifetime pondering who has a proper understanding and WHAT is that proper understanding.

andy_d

Seraphim: What makes you think that Western Buddhists would want to hear a non-Buddhist university proffessor tell them about Buddhism?

Don't you think we'd rather hear about it from a Buddhist? ie: someone who actually knows what they're talking about

Yes, of course Buddhism is studied by academics in univeristies. All religions and philosphies are. But that's all they are, academics who study a particular field as an intellectual curiosity.

Would you expect a professor of aerodynamics to be able to teach you how to fly a fighter plane? No, you'd find a fighter pilot to teach you.

As you know, to Buddhists dharma is not just an intellectual trinket, as it is to an academic. Academics have no actual experience of the practice, so there understanding is very, very limited. They just like to collect pretty words and fancy concepts.

I really don't know where you got such a big misconception from.

BTW: You are incorrect when you say "No-one invited Buddhism to the west" In my lineage for example, the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa specifically instructed some of his students to spread dharma in the west, and they have worked tirelessly to do so.

Waning Moon Conrad

Seraphim,

There really and truly are many Buddhists here in the west who are Westerners, who practice within a lineage, who study seriously, who practice with diligence, who take their teachers seriously and carry the Dharma in their hearts.

There are plenty of idiots in the Dharma scene too but there are plenty of serious people who are genuine Buddhists.

If you met them, you'd probably agree with me.

Some academics are practitioners too.