Freethought & Rationalism Archive

06-18-2002, 09:22 PM

Regarding topic:

No more than the element carbon is the cause of all suffering.

victorialis · 06-19-2002, 02:18 AM

Hello all. I've been on holiday.

hey, St Robert, how's it going?

Quote:

Originally posted by St. Robert:
Quote from Victorialis:

"What would we do with the answers to these questions that we cannot do just as easily without them?"

With reliable and truthful answers to these questions, a person would possess true hope in their life.

True hope? That sounds suspiciously like certainty. Life does not contain this. Therein lies the challenge of faith, no?

I maintain that there is nothing in life that can be postponed pending our acquisition of true hope. The decisions to be made and the responsibilities to be met will not wait for it. We have to do the best we can today.

Untested faith is not faith. It's fantasy -- doomed fantasy. Tests of faith are acid tests. Certainty isn't part of the picture; that's what makes them tests.

Quote:

Quote from Victorialis:

"There's only one purpose to which these answers are essential: having a sense of being right."

The purpose of Christianity is not about being right. It's about sharing the truth. As a follower of Jesus, I actually give up the right to be right.

This is deep, deep yoghurt here.

Please explain the difference between being right and sharing the truth. I would appreciate it. I do not see how anyone can do the latter in the absence of the former, without playing some dangerous semantic games with oneself, and with others. Why should a person who has "given up the right to be right" be listened to at all? Noise is plentiful in this world.

Quote:

When Jesus was executed, he didn't argue with his accusers about who he claimed to be.

"He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth." -Isaiah 53:7

This part I understand. But it stands against your statement about being able to share the truth without also being right. Jesus did not go down arguing. Check that out. He met his destiny with silence. A powerful lesson.

Here's what I take from the quoted Scripture: Doing right requires no verbal component. Just do it. Virtue is self-sufficient, not self-conscious. When it becomes self-conscious, it is on the threshold of being self-admiring.

How many religious people would fall away if their virtue was required to be un-self-conscious? We'll never know; from without, such a rule would be unenforcable.

AdamWho -- I thought your Freud quote was quite apposite.

[ June 19, 2002: Message edited by: victorialis ]</p>

Bradley · 06-19-2002, 11:21 AM

Greetings all,

I am new to this forum and have been reading through this particular topic. I have a question for you'all regarding the "faith" issue.

Does it really make sense for someone to practice Buddhism if they don't believe in reincarnation or karma? (This appears to be implied in many of the messages) If so, then why can't one practice Christianity while not believing in the resurrection or the miracles of Jesus? Why do so many atheists become Buddhists?

I am not sure if this is staying "on topic". If not, I can start a new one.

Sincerely,
Bradley
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

AdamWho · 06-19-2002, 03:57 PM

Bradley:

Quote:

Does it really make sense for someone to practice Buddhism if they don't believe in reincarnation or karma?

I believe yes. Buddhism without any supernatural elements is still a very sound religion and I believe a better one without them.
Karma doesn' need to have any supernatural conotations - it is simply a different version of "the golden rule"

perpetua · 06-19-2002, 06:37 PM

Bradly:
Regarding the question, "Why can't one practice Christianity while not believing in the Resurrection or miracles of Christ"

perpetua · 06-19-2002, 06:51 PM

If you don't believe in the resurrection or miracles of Christ. What exactly are you practicing? Being Nice? You don't need Christianity to do that. The death, resurrection, and assension of Christ are the foundations of the faith. Without them Christianity holds no claim to salvation. And Jesus Christ is nothing more than a common man. As for the miracles, they were proof of his Godhood. They were symbols of his saving power. Power over satan,through removal of demons, power over the physical world by calming seas and multiplying food, power over our physical bodies through healing and raising others from the dead. The only thing Christ CHOSE not to have power over was our minds. That is why we have free will. So, in answer to your question, if you do not believe in the resurrection and miracles of Jesus Christ, you are not a Christian.

[ June 19, 2002: Message edited by: perpetua ]</p>

Grizzly · 06-20-2002, 12:29 AM

Hi everyone (and welcome Bradley and Perpetua),

This thread has been discussing desire and suffering, and has also expanded to a comparison of christian and buddhist views. Please keep this thread focused on these subjects. If you wish to discuss what it takes to be a Christian, you probably need to open a thread in another forum (such as Miscellaneous Religious Discussions). If you want to compare Christian views to Buddhist principles, stay right where you are!

Thanks

Grizzly

victorialis · 06-20-2002, 05:09 AM

Re "practice without believing": There are versions of Buddhism in which faith is central(eg, Pure Land) and others that include hell(s) in their doctrine.

I would venture to say that many people practice Christian principles without belief in miracles or resurrection, simply because they perceive integrity in those principles. That's a good reason. But it doesn't allow them to get social mileage from labelling themselves Christians.

How big a disadvantage is that? If the principles are sound, who needs the label?

I don't pay much attention to what people call themselves. It's much more informative to watch their feet.

perpetua · 06-20-2002, 08:00 AM

Hello Victorialis,
Grizzly, hope this brings us back to the original topic.
Christianity is about much more than the way you walk. It's about the way you think. It's about controlling your desires. If you have worldy desires you will most definitely have suffering in this life that could potentially destroy you,if not just make you moderately miserable. But, if you set your heart on Godly desires ie:the desire to live by the spirit not the flesh, the desire to please Christ and not "man",then there is no suffering.For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also (Matt.6:21).So in Christ, no situation calls for misery because Christ already took your misery on the Cross. You can be joyful in all circumstances. The heart of Christianity transcends all earthly pain.
The tricky part is redirecting your desires and becoming aware of the source of your suffering.
Living life on a day by day basis makes this easier. You don't get so consumed by the things that you perceive will ease any suffering or make life better in the long run.I have found that living (or earnestly attempting to live),by what the Apostle Paul calls the "Fruit of the Spirit" has decreased and in some cases eliminated suffering in my life. It is found in Galatians 5:22 "But the fruit of the spirit is love,joy,peace,patience,kindness,goodness,faithful ness,gentleness,and SELF CONTROL. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires."
In this passage Paul tells us it is a sin to desire anything outside of Christ. And the Biblical consequence of sin is eternal separation from Christ and earthly suffering. So if Christians would allow their minds to be controlled by the Spirit of Christ their feet would follow in kind. Don't Ya Think?

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: perpetua ]</p>

AdamWho · 06-20-2002, 04:26 PM

perpetua:

You seem to have a good handle on desire and the cause of suffering. Your (new testament) Christianity seems to have a lot of parallels with Buddhism.
One of the points in this thread is looking at the similarities between Buddhism and Christianity. It is my belief that they are much closer related (via mystery schools) than most Christians would like to think.

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06-18-2002, 09:22 PM	#241
Synaesthesia Guest Posts: n/a	Regarding topic: No more than the element carbon is the cause of all suffering.

06-19-2002, 11:21 AM	#243
Bradley New Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 1	Greetings all, I am new to this forum and have been reading through this particular topic. I have a question for you'all regarding the "faith" issue. Does it really make sense for someone to practice Buddhism if they don't believe in reincarnation or karma? (This appears to be implied in many of the messages) If so, then why can't one practice Christianity while not believing in the resurrection or the miracles of Jesus? Why do so many atheists become Buddhists? I am not sure if this is staying "on topic". If not, I can start a new one. Sincerely, Bradley <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

06-19-2002, 06:37 PM	#245
perpetua Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: New Mexico Posts: 217	Bradly: Regarding the question, "Why can't one practice Christianity while not believing in the Resurrection or miracles of Christ"

06-19-2002, 06:51 PM	#246
perpetua Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: New Mexico Posts: 217	If you don't believe in the resurrection or miracles of Christ. What exactly are you practicing? Being Nice? You don't need Christianity to do that. The death, resurrection, and assension of Christ are the foundations of the faith. Without them Christianity holds no claim to salvation. And Jesus Christ is nothing more than a common man. As for the miracles, they were proof of his Godhood. They were symbols of his saving power. Power over satan,through removal of demons, power over the physical world by calming seas and multiplying food, power over our physical bodies through healing and raising others from the dead. The only thing Christ CHOSE not to have power over was our minds. That is why we have free will. So, in answer to your question, if you do not believe in the resurrection and miracles of Jesus Christ, you are not a Christian. [ June 19, 2002: Message edited by: perpetua ]</p>

06-20-2002, 12:29 AM	#247
Grizzly Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 2,936	Hi everyone (and welcome Bradley and Perpetua), This thread has been discussing desire and suffering, and has also expanded to a comparison of christian and buddhist views. Please keep this thread focused on these subjects. If you wish to discuss what it takes to be a Christian, you probably need to open a thread in another forum (such as Miscellaneous Religious Discussions). If you want to compare Christian views to Buddhist principles, stay right where you are! Thanks Grizzly

06-20-2002, 05:09 AM	#248
victorialis Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Midlands, UK Posts: 195	Re "practice without believing": There are versions of Buddhism in which faith is central(eg, Pure Land) and others that include hell(s) in their doctrine. I would venture to say that many people practice Christian principles without belief in miracles or resurrection, simply because they perceive integrity in those principles. That's a good reason. But it doesn't allow them to get social mileage from labelling themselves Christians. How big a disadvantage is that? If the principles are sound, who needs the label? I don't pay much attention to what people call themselves. It's much more informative to watch their feet.

06-20-2002, 08:00 AM	#249
perpetua Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: New Mexico Posts: 217	Hello Victorialis, Grizzly, hope this brings us back to the original topic. Christianity is about much more than the way you walk. It's about the way you think. It's about controlling your desires. If you have worldy desires you will most definitely have suffering in this life that could potentially destroy you,if not just make you moderately miserable. But, if you set your heart on Godly desires ie:the desire to live by the spirit not the flesh, the desire to please Christ and not "man",then there is no suffering.For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also (Matt.6:21).So in Christ, no situation calls for misery because Christ already took your misery on the Cross. You can be joyful in all circumstances. The heart of Christianity transcends all earthly pain. The tricky part is redirecting your desires and becoming aware of the source of your suffering. Living life on a day by day basis makes this easier. You don't get so consumed by the things that you perceive will ease any suffering or make life better in the long run.I have found that living (or earnestly attempting to live),by what the Apostle Paul calls the "Fruit of the Spirit" has decreased and in some cases eliminated suffering in my life. It is found in Galatians 5:22 "But the fruit of the spirit is love,joy,peace,patience,kindness,goodness,faithful ness,gentleness,and SELF CONTROL. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires." In this passage Paul tells us it is a sin to desire anything outside of Christ. And the Biblical consequence of sin is eternal separation from Christ and earthly suffering. So if Christians would allow their minds to be controlled by the Spirit of Christ their feet would follow in kind. Don't Ya Think? [ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: perpetua ]</p>

06-20-2002, 04:26 PM	#250
AdamWho Contributor Join Date: May 2001 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 13,389	perpetua: You seem to have a good handle on desire and the cause of suffering. Your (new testament) Christianity seems to have a lot of parallels with Buddhism. One of the points in this thread is looking at the similarities between Buddhism and Christianity. It is my belief that they are much closer related (via mystery schools) than most Christians would like to think.

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