FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > IIDB ARCHIVE: 200X-2003, PD 2007 > IIDB Philosophical Forums (PRIOR TO JUN-2003)
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 05:55 AM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-23-2003, 06:44 PM   #41
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 7,204
Default

Quote:
Why not? Jesus said "no one comes to the Father except through me". I don't see any proviso for unborn children in there.

Moreover, you said no one was innocent. Do you now have to correct yourself and say that no one except unborn children is innocent? Does an unborn child go to heaven whereas a child who has just been born go to hell?
Because children don't have the knowledge or understanding to know who God is, what sin is and why they need Jesus as their saviour. Therefore they aren't held responsbile until a particular age ( which is different for each individual and God determines it).


Quote:
Is his nature good? If so, why has he killed so many people, including unborn children?
Because God executed judgement on the sinners and had a particular purpose in mind. For example, in the flood, the children lived in a society beyond evil even compared to today. Had God let the children grow up to the point of being held responsible for sin, they would have rejected him and been judged. By killing them with the other sinners, God held onto them and brought them to Heaven with him before they could reject him.

And as the cliche goes, God works in mysterious ways we can't always understand.

Quote:
Is he bound by anything? If not, what is to prevent him from throwing everyone in the world into hell immediately? By your reasoning, this would at once become moral, because he would have wanted it.
He is bound by his own nature. And nothing prevents him from throwing all humans into Hell. In fact he has every right to do so through perfect justice because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Rom 3:23.
Thats where all humans belong. But in his infinite mercy and love, he came to earth and paid the penalty for our sins so we didn't have to face our inevitable fate. He brought us back to glory with him by his own grace and love. Jesus' life was worth more than every human on Earth because he was perfectly innocent and sinless. He didn't even have original sin. He was Holy and pure, yet he died to carry the sin on the cross with him to pay your debt. If God was the sadistic monster you describe, we would all be in Hell right now and Jesus would have never died for us, because he absolutely had no need to do so other than he loves us and didn't want us to face our fate despite how we treat him.



Quote:
Oh, I dunno, just some weird feeling that murder's not quite a decent thing to do to people.
Executing judgement on people isn't murder. The U.S executes people all the time for their crimes, and God does so too yet he can't make a mistake and execute an innocent person because no one is innocent.
Magus55 is offline  
Old 03-23-2003, 06:46 PM   #42
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 7,204
Default

Quote:
Then your god is setting a pathetic example, and doesn't deserve to be worshipped.
He does to us. He created us, He died to save us from Hell. Therefore, he deserves to be worshipped. You don't want to worship him, thats your choice. God doesn't force you to accept his gift, but he also warned of the penalty for it.
Magus55 is offline  
Old 03-23-2003, 07:13 PM   #43
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Lebanon, OR, USA
Posts: 16,829
Default

Magus55 reminds me of St. Augustine, who was obsessed with his sinfulness.

He had devoted some chapters of his Confessions to describing what a terrible sin he had committed in his childhood -- he and some other boys stealing some pears.

And he claimed that babies are terrible sinners, guilty of gluttony and jealousy and the like.
lpetrich is offline  
Old 03-23-2003, 07:17 PM   #44
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 3,425
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Magus55
Because children don't have the knowledge or understanding to know who God is, what sin is and why they need Jesus as their saviour. Therefore they aren't held responsbile until a particular age ( which is different for each individual and God determines it).


Because God executed judgement on the sinners and had a particular purpose in mind. For example, in the flood, the children lived in a society beyond evil even compared to today. Had God let the children grow up to the point of being held responsible for sin, they would have rejected him and been judged. By killing them with the other sinners, God held onto them and brought them to Heaven with him before they could reject him.
Why couldn't he do the same for the sinners who were already above the age of accountability? Why didn't he kill them off before they were condemned to hell by him? After all, he knows what everyone will do, before they do those things.

Quote:
And as the cliche goes, God works in mysterious ways we can't always understand.
And yet you claim to know all about him.

Quote:
He does to us. He created us, He died to save us from Hell. Therefore, he deserves to be worshipped. You don't want to worship him, thats your choice. God doesn't force you to accept his gift, but he also warned of the penalty for it.
Still sounds like afterlife blackmail and threats to me. Besides, why would I want to live for all eternity next to probably the worst, most hypocritical, evil being depicted? Sounds worse than hell to me.
winstonjen is offline  
Old 03-23-2003, 07:19 PM   #45
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 3,425
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Magus55
He does to us. He created us, He died to save us from Hell.
Don't forget that he created hell, to begin with. And according to your bible, he loves burnt sacrifices. Therefore, he would probably ENJOY torturing people in hell. I guess that's why he creates so many people just for damnation and deceives them - he enjoys it.
winstonjen is offline  
Old 03-23-2003, 07:19 PM   #46
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 7,204
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by lpetrich
Magus55 reminds me of St. Augustine, who was obsessed with his sinfulness.

He had devoted some chapters of his Confessions to describing what a terrible sin he had committed in his childhood -- he and some other boys stealing some pears.

And he claimed that babies are terrible sinners, guilty of gluttony and jealousy and the like.
I'm not obsessed with sin, but i know I am a sinner and only by Lord Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross am i able to be reconciled. I repent my sins to God all the time because I feel bad for doing them. I hate sinning against God.
Magus55 is offline  
Old 03-23-2003, 07:21 PM   #47
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 3,425
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Magus55
I'm not obsessed with sin, but i know I am a sinner and only by Lord Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross am i able to be reconciled. I repent my sins to God all the time because I feel bad for doing them. I hate sinning against God.
Wouldn't it be easier to simply stop sinning rather than to keep repenting all the time? Or can't you stop because you enjoy it?
winstonjen is offline  
Old 03-23-2003, 07:25 PM   #48
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Lebanon, OR, USA
Posts: 16,829
Default

Then your god is setting a pathetic example, and doesn't deserve to be worshipped

Quote:
Originally posted by Magus55
He does to us. He created us, He died to save us from Hell. ...
What a tangled mess.

I have two "creators", two human parents. But I don't grovel before them and tell them how much I hate myself.
lpetrich is offline  
Old 03-23-2003, 07:30 PM   #49
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 7,204
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by winstonjen
Wouldn't it be easier to simply stop sinning rather than to keep repenting all the time? Or can't you stop because you enjoy it?
No, we can't stop sinning because we are in a corrupt world and corrupt bodies. Until Jesus ressurects us and gives us new bodies, we will always fail and sin. However, the difference is, we strive not to sin and repent when we do.
Magus55 is offline  
Old 03-23-2003, 07:32 PM   #50
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 7,204
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by lpetrich
Then your god is setting a pathetic example, and doesn't deserve to be worshipped

What a tangled mess.

I have two "creators", two human parents. But I don't grovel before them and tell them how much I hate myself.
Your parents aren't your creators, they are the vessel that brought you into the world. God created the human body, he created reproduction and the process of life, and he allows conception. All humans do is start the process and are entrusted by God to raise the child.
Magus55 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:18 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.