Freethought & Rationalism Archive

nogods4me · 08-05-2002, 12:38 PM

people like Dawkins and Dennett don't have the media exposure that the leaders of some religios groups do. Falwell is a fixture on cable news programs spouting his crap, and there are several 24/7/365 religious channels spweing forth their tripe about evilution and how there is no transitional fossil, and science is the work of the devil, the earth is 6000 years old, yadda yaddda yadda.
The prey on fear and ignorance, they don't wish to englighten their followers, the wish to lighten their wallets. They proclaim that which they know to be false, and do it in the name of their god. that is more lowly and pathetic than nearly anything I can think of.

missus_gumby · 08-05-2002, 12:42 PM

GeoTheo, you forget that many of the replies provided in the Talkorigins feedback are by christians. From what I have read, it must be less than 1% of the replies that poke a bit of fun at the 'questioner'.

It's almost as if all the people asking the stupid questions haven't read any of FAQ's whatsoever. Or, for that matter, any of the previous feedback answers.

Martin

nogods4me · 08-05-2002, 12:48 PM

'scuse me Geo, I should have said science and some religions disagree about the age of the earth.

lpetrich · 08-05-2002, 01:05 PM

Quote:

GT:
I think what is seen here are people responding on an emotional level, to the implications of evolution to somthing they hold dear: Their religious Faith. I don't think it is funny at all.

What's your point, O GeoTheo? That the religion business is to be one big fat Sacred Cow? Is it thereby exempt from all normal canons of scholarship, let alone morality?

Quote:

GT:
If you atheists don't enjoy being hated by large portions of the population, I think you may consider trying to be sensitive to other peoples religious beliefs.

A "sensitivity" that should never have to be reciprocated, right?

Quote:

GT:
I think certian atheists, who like to use evolution as a weapon to attack religion are partially responsible for this type of sentiment. ...

They see themselves as calling a spade a spade and a false belief a false belief.

pz · 08-05-2002, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:
<strong>
That is a good formula for picking a big fight.
As a biological scientist, you find it frightening that many people are ignorant of biological science?
Is that a bit self serving of you?
How does this sound:
As a stamp collector, I find peoples ignorance of stamps frightening!
As a music historian, I find peoples ignorance of music history frightening!
As an English teacher, I find peoples ignorance of grammar frightening!
</strong>

Imagine that you are a stamp collector or music historian or English teacher, and that you've spent years in careful study of the subject. Your knowledge is detailed and non-trivial.

Now imagine that a whole bunch of people have read some really bizarre, uninformed opinions on your field of study, and have decided that they understand it better than you do...without having seriously studied it. They tell you that the first stamps were printed in 1976, that woodwinds are heathenish instruments of the devil that may not be used, and that "there" is a possessive plural. Essentially, they open their mouths and prove themselves idiots, but they've got a large audience of similarly ignorant idiots who engage in a lot of mutual backslapping, and they've convinced themselves that they really do know more than the experts.

So far, they aren't too scary except for the fact that there seem to be an awful lot of them. They're really just annoying.

But then, they start trying to dictate their nonsense to everyone. They try to legislate their way into the field, working to get laws passed that declare that their beliefs about stamps are the only ones allowed to be expressed. They write editorials that the media actually publish, insisting that clarinet players are treasonous bastards out to destroy Western Civilization. They work at the grassroots to get school boards to use "there" rules for English grammar.

That's scary.

That's where biology is today.

GeoTheo · 08-05-2002, 01:41 PM

The Key is to try to change the location of the battlefeild. I admit it is not an easy task. I will even say that religious leaders that present evolution as a threat to religion hold more culpability in this than the average scientist.
But nobody wins a religious war. Or perhaps not without a great cost of casualties. Look at the present situation in Israel, or the past situation for that matter. See the point?
If evolution is presented as Christian vs. Atheist I don't think the situation will ever improve.
People on both sides present it that way.
I am trying to convince Christians of this very thing. Believe me it is a hard task.
So to me these feedbacks are not funny.
If people here are scared by this. What is your solution?

Copernic · 08-05-2002, 01:51 PM

Bravo PZ.

Quote:

Now imagine that a whole bunch of people have read some really bizarre, uninformed opinions on your field of study, and have decided that they understand it better than you do...without having seriously studied it.

I like to refer to Bertrand Russell's three principles when I reflect on the challenges to modern evolutionary theory.

(1) When the experts are agreed, the opposite opinion cannot be held to be certain.

(2) When they are not agreed, no opinion can be regarded as certain by a non-expert.

(3) When they all hold that no sufficient grounds for a positive opinion exists, the ordinary man would do well to suspend judgment.

Using these precepts, for example, philatelists would be safe from silly laymen making absurd statements about the true history of stamps according to their "special holy book" or that the upsidedown Wright Flyer was divinely created rather than being just a printing "accident"

J

GeoTheo · 08-05-2002, 01:56 PM

Yeah,
but you see by framing the debate of creation vs. evolution as a debate of atheism vs. the existence of God every person who believes in God becomes a subject matter expert.

GeoTheo · 08-05-2002, 01:59 PM

No one appointed Dawkins and ilk to be the worlds expert of wheather the Christian God exists or not.

lpetrich · 08-05-2002, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:
<strong>No one appointed Dawkins and ilk to be the worlds expert of wheather the Christian God exists or not.</strong>

But were you and your favorite people the ones appointed to that exalted status, O GeoTheo?

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08-05-2002, 12:38 PM	#21
nogods4me Contributor Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 17,432	people like Dawkins and Dennett don't have the media exposure that the leaders of some religios groups do. Falwell is a fixture on cable news programs spouting his crap, and there are several 24/7/365 religious channels spweing forth their tripe about evilution and how there is no transitional fossil, and science is the work of the devil, the earth is 6000 years old, yadda yaddda yadda. The prey on fear and ignorance, they don't wish to englighten their followers, the wish to lighten their wallets. They proclaim that which they know to be false, and do it in the name of their god. that is more lowly and pathetic than nearly anything I can think of.

08-05-2002, 12:42 PM	#22
missus_gumby Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: UK Posts: 1,898	GeoTheo, you forget that many of the replies provided in the Talkorigins feedback are by christians. From what I have read, it must be less than 1% of the replies that poke a bit of fun at the 'questioner'. It's almost as if all the people asking the stupid questions haven't read any of FAQ's whatsoever. Or, for that matter, any of the previous feedback answers. Martin

08-05-2002, 12:48 PM	#23
nogods4me Contributor Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 17,432	'scuse me Geo, I should have said science and some religions disagree about the age of the earth.

08-05-2002, 01:41 PM	#26
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	The Key is to try to change the location of the battlefeild. I admit it is not an easy task. I will even say that religious leaders that present evolution as a threat to religion hold more culpability in this than the average scientist. But nobody wins a religious war. Or perhaps not without a great cost of casualties. Look at the present situation in Israel, or the past situation for that matter. See the point? If evolution is presented as Christian vs. Atheist I don't think the situation will ever improve. People on both sides present it that way. I am trying to convince Christians of this very thing. Believe me it is a hard task. So to me these feedbacks are not funny. If people here are scared by this. What is your solution?

08-05-2002, 01:56 PM	#28
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	Yeah, but you see by framing the debate of creation vs. evolution as a debate of atheism vs. the existence of God every person who believes in God becomes a subject matter expert.

08-05-2002, 01:59 PM	#29
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	No one appointed Dawkins and ilk to be the worlds expert of wheather the Christian God exists or not.

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