Carrie

Vinnie,

What is God’s plan? To save people through Jesus and get them to heaven. (I don’t see why God couldn’t just save us himself, without making Jesus die on a cross). But the plan is, people have to believe in Jesus, follow him, and do what’s right to be saved. God will save those who do their best to follow Jesus. Those who don’t try that hard and “don’t earn interest with what God has given them” will not be saved. If Christians get lukewarm, they are in danger of going to hell. So those who just say they believe, but don’t give up their lives for Jesus, are damned.

So, why can’t God just require that people believe in Him, and follow righteous ways? Those who try their best to be righteous would be saved. I don’t see why Jesus in needed. I have NEVER understood why BLOOD was needed for forgiveness, and I’ll never understand it. I think it all had to do with the fact that many other cultures sacrificed animals, or even humans (like the Aztecs) to get favor from the gods. So they THOUGHT blood was needed for forgiveness, but that makes no sense to me.


Christian,

I was just addressing what you said about having a better plan. I wasn’t really looking to debate much, but only wanted to express my opinion that I think anyone could come up with a better plan. A God that thinks, “Hmmm, I think I’ll make a world of humans, even though I know in advance that most of them will not choose Jesus and will burn in hell forever,” has not made a very good plan.

As for the Matthew 24 stuff, that’s a whole other thread, and I’d be happy to go into it.

About slavery: I’m sure Christians did speak out against slavery. But it’s not like they were the only people to do so, or necessarily the first. But the Christians who used the Bible to defend slavery would have been right in saying that God did not have a problem with it. Jesus didn’t have a problem with it either.

Good for the Christians for speaking up against slavery, but they should have done that a long ass time ago. And if you’re going to say something like, “Well, Jesus did not speak out against slavery because it would have been unreasonable at the time,” I’ve heard all kinds of explanations like that, and I think they really suck.

One thing I’d be interested to know is: How DO you explain why slavery was condoned by God back then, even after Jesus? I’m sure I’ll think the rationalization is bogus, but go ahead and give it a shot anyway. Maybe make that a new thread, because I'm sure it would spark plenty of debate.

Thanks,
Carrie

Vinnie

I'm asking the questions here!

Wait, that is God's purpose for people or that was his purpose in creating the universe?

I don't dispute that God wants people saved or wants them to go to heaven. But pop theology where Jesus is a fire escape from hell misses the mark quite a bit. Biblical Salvation deals with this life and continues into the next. Its not primarily about escaping the fires of hell (whatever those nasty critters are).

Me neither. Who said Jesus had to die on the cross for forgiveness. It may have been good for Jesus to do this but that does not make it necessary. One model of Atonement theology advocated by Thomas Aquinas is that God didn't absolutely need satisfaction to forgive, but it was good of him to want or require it so that we would understand the gravity of our sin. Do you see the difference here?

Pop apologist with talk of infinte sin and infite distance from the infinite holy God and the need of an infinte holy sacrifcie completely miss this point. If I can forgive someone when they wrong me and seek reconciliation why can't God do theye same? To use their own terminology, surely God capable of "infinetely" more mercy, compassios nand forgiveness than a wretched sinner like me?

Several points are necessary:

You appear to be advocating a works based salvation. The point of the Cross is that we are already forgiven (this is not equivalent to universalism). God has taken care of our sin. We do not work to be saved. God acepts us as we are and will go about changing us and producing works through us. The recognition that God has taken care of our sin and that she unconditionally loves us produces our works .

There are scirptures that the conservatives tend to ignore which state that we will be judged according to what we do, not according to what facts we believe. This is much more morally sensisble correct? I think the Christians who make intellectual knowledge a soteriological criterion are ridiculous. My wider-hope theory outlines the problems with that well enough.

Am I contradicting myself here? Did I just advocate a works based salvation? Not at all. I'll come back to this later. We are confusing "salvation in this life" with "final judgment" and "going to heaven". They do not all mean exactly the same thing.

Most Christians believe the risen Jesus is God so lets simplify this discussion. God wants us to believe in him (not head knowledge but trust which included head knowledge) and to follow his ways and do what is right. God simply wants the best for us. What complaints could there be so far?

Again, this is a works based salvation and its focus is on the afterlife. Salvation occurs here and now and it is God who produces the works. This salvation in this life is not equivalent to "who goes to heaven".

The point of the Cross is solidarity. God loves us. Recognition that God loves us sinners and is there with his arms open waiting for us despite our constant rebellion is what produces change. Once a person trully understands God's love, how can there be any escaping it? But if a person does not recognize God's unconditional forgiveness then nothing at all changes and we are stuck in exile and bondage to ourselves and the world.

I've never understood this. How can we be guilty of not trying hard in the conservative view when they accept something like original sin which clearly tilts the scale?

Anyways, I think you might be forgetting about grace. We have less control over our lives than we might think and grace completely undermines contemporary individualism (especially American). Grace undermines the notion "that I am what I am because of how hard I have worked. Even in secular terms, the notion that we are "self-made" is patently false. How much of our own "achievement" is because of our genetic inheritance, the family and economic circumstances into which we were born, and a myriad of events in our lives over which we have had very little control? And is it really true that those who have not done as well have only or mostly themselves to blame? Grace calls into question some of our most cherished religious and political beliefs. But properly understood, grace is a profoundly egalitarian notion. The more one understands grace, the more hubris (and its corollary of judgment of others) will be replaced by gratitude. Gratitude and grace go hand in hand." [Borg God We Never Knew p.168]

Also, who said salvation is limited to this life? That one biblical verse that says it is apponted for men to die once and face judgement?

What? That is exactly what God does want from us. Who told you otherwise!? Let me at em

I would agree with this but salvation ion this life is not the same thing as "going to heaven in the next" though it certainly leads to it. We experience salvation not because we have acheived something but because God forgives us (I am a weak to moderate retributionist in this regard). Also, you whole post has a skewed view of what salvation is. Its not escaping hell. I am having difficulty relating and responding to what you are saying because of this different understanding of the term but I will post a follow up on a few biblical images of salvation to clarify this.

Because we don't seek to reconcile ourselves to God on our own. God always takes the divine initiative. He doesn't wait for us to go to him. He comes to us. There is a famous picture with Jesus standing at a door knocking saying let me in!

The yearly sin offering ritual thingy required blood to be sprinkeld on the alter and all that. Take this as covenant language rather than as absolute language about the character of God. I think God would be absurd if his forgiveness was actually predicated on the killing of animals or the shedding of blood. But I would have less trouble with God instituting a sacrificial system. For instance, sin offering remind one of their sin and their need of God as we can easily forget about God in everyday life.

Vinnie

Vinnie

Some incpomplete thoughts on
Salvation and the Wounds of Existence

Salvation is the business the Church is in. But what exactly is salvation? I would call the salvation of a person their being reconciled to God and experiencing the freedom that relationship produces. Obviously, if you are to be reconciled to something you must have been previously separated for some reason. So what does salvation save us from? Why is there a gulf between us and God? The answer lies in the wounds of existence. Human beings are in a predicament from which we need delivering. Part of this condition is caused by the pain others inflict on us, part of it is caused by the pain we inflict on others and part of it is caused by the pain we inflict upon ourselves. The cumulative effect here is that we live outside the garden. We live east of Eden.

Biblical Images of Salvation

Bondage and Liberation

Marcus Borg: "Salvation as liberation goes back to the foundational narrative of the Bible, the exodus story of Israel's liberation from bondage in Egypt. Bondage as an image of the human predicament in this story includes economic and political oppression: the Hebrews were literally slaves under the Lordship of Pharaoh. The image of our condition as bondage also has psychological and spiritual meanings in the Bible. For Paul . . . and the New Testament, we are in bondage to "the powers." "The powers" are cultural, spiritual, and psychological powers operating both within us and outside us. The powers include the domination system and the spirit of the age, and they produce in us not only bondage but a sense of powerlessness. Life under the powers is dominated existence.

What does bondage suggest as an image of the human condition? We are in bondage to many things. Our bondage can be the result of things that happen to us, or we can fall into it through our own acts. Cultural messages are deeply ingrained within us, as are belief systems that radically shape the way we see and live. People continue to be in bondage to economic and political systems--both the victims of such systems as well as those who benefit from them (though in quite different ways). We can be in bondage to wounds stemming from childhood. We are addicted to many things. We typically are in bondage to preoccupation with ourselves and our well-being. The list can grow very long.

Liberation from bondage is thus one of the central meanings of salvation. The story of the Exodus is a story about all of us and our need to be liberated from what holds us in bondage. Liberation is a central theme in the story of Jesus. According to Luke, Jesus' mission (then and now) is "to proclaim release to the captives, and to let the oppressed go free." The language of liberation also resounds in the writings of Paul: "For freedom Christ has set us free . . . therefore, do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." For Paul, God in Christ has defeated the powers, exposing and dethroning the other Lords of our lives." [The God We never Knew Pp. 158-9]

The idea of bondage and liberation ties in directly with the ransom theory. The ransom theory says that Jesus' life was a ransom paid for the sake of our salvation. In many circles this view has been scorned and largely rejected as naive. A ransom is something paid to a captor for the release of something or someone. In this case it is asked to whom did God have to pay or simply find it good to pay a ransom for us? To himself? God holds us captive? Surely that is false. To those who believe he is a literal being, what about a ransom paid to Satan? Does the enemy hold us captive and was Jesus' death a ransom allowing us to be freed from him? This cannot be seriously maintained either. The notion that God would need to or even should find it good to pay anything to Satan for our salvation is ludicrous and quite simply, bad theology. What about sin? Surely we were captives to sin before being liberated? As Richard Purtill wrote, "To say we were captives of "sin" is good New Testament language, but sin is not a personal agent who can be given a reason to release us." The objection against the the ransom theory then, is that there is no one to whom God could have paid a ransom to.

Unfortunately, this view is not easily dismissed by Christians who hold to the authority of scripture. In Mark 10:45 and Matthew 20:28 Jesus is the "Son of Man who did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many". As Mentioned by Borg, in Luke's inaugural address (4:18-19) Jesus is sent to "proclaim freedom for the prisoners" and to"release the oppressed." In 1 Timothy 2:6 Jesus is the mediator between God and man who "who gave himself as a ransom for all men". Hebrews 9:15, in the terms of sacrificial covenant, also says that Jesus "died as a ransom to set people free." As we saw above in Marcus Borg's discussion, the idea of bondage and liberation abounds in Biblical literature. We also see that the ransom theory has wide scriptural support. So the question remains? Who has us captive? To whom are we prisoners of?

One possible answer is actually right under our noses and was implicitly stated by Borg. Who has us in captivity? We do! We are our own captors and Jesus' death was a ransom which frees us from ourselves. We hold ourselves captive and God, through Jesus' death on the Cross, paid a ransom to us so that we might be released from ourselves. He wanted to liberate us from our own enslavement to sin and to reconcile us to himself. That is why Paul proclaims in Romans 5:8 that "God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Through Jesus' sacrificial death God tells us that he loves us and by telling us that He loves us, He gives us good reason to release ourselves from captivity.

Estrangement and Reconciliation

Another Biblical image of salvation involves the concept of "exile". To be in exile to to be separated from something to which you belong. A husband who did things he regrets and finds himself sleeping out on the couch is in a state of exile. The man sleeping on the couch belongs next to his wife but instead he is in a place of grief and weeping. A place where he does not not feel at home because quite simply, he is not at home. Being in a state of exile gives one the feeling that they don't belong and it can alienate them. The notion of exile is depicted very well in verses 1 through 4 of Psalm 137

By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion.
There on the poplars
we hung our harps,
for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said, "Sing us one of the songs of Zion!"

How can we sing the songs of the LORD
while in a foreign land?

The exiles were not at home (Jerusalem). They were in a foreign land where they wept and remembered Zion. Exile is also one of the themes of the Biblical story of Adam and Eve. They were expelled from the Garden of Eden and forced to live outside of the home they were intended to live in. We are in the same boat as we all live outside the manifest presence of God, east of Eden. Quite simply, we are estranged from God. Our relationship is not what it should be and we need to be reconciled. Our state of exile is something that happens to us through the activity of outside personal free agents and it is mainly something that we inflict upon ourselves. Our rebellion leads to this state of exile and our estrangement from God can be very strong. So strong that many people are not even explicitly aware of the fact that they are "sleeping on the couch" rather than where they belong. This goes to show us how deep the wounds of existence actually are. The man sleeping on the couch may get so used to it that the fact of his "exile" becomes numbed and "forgotten".

"Salvation as reconciliation is the experience of being reconnected to God. It involves the overcoming of our sense of separation from the one to whom we belong. It is to return to Eden, symbolically the place of God's presence, to "paradise restored." It is homecoming, In the exile story, the process involves a journey of return to "the holy land," which (like Eden) is the place of God's presence. Indeed, this is one of the central meanings of "repentance" in the Bible: to repent means to return from exile to God. But this journey is not simply something that we do or accomplish, for God invites, encourages, and empowers the return." (Borg, ibid, p. 160)

Reconciliation is a common Biblical theme. See Col. 1:20-22, Eph. 2:16, Romans 5:10 and 2 Cor. 5:17-20 which specifically tells us that "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God."


Salvation as Enlightenment
In Luke 2:32 the boy Jesus is called the "light of revelation to the Gentiles" by Simeon. John 1:9 and 3:19 tell us that the true light which gives light to every man came into the world in the person of Jesus. John 5:35 says that John the Baptist "was a lamp that burned and gave light" for a time. John 8:12 attributes to Jesus this saying to the people, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." Any Christian will affirm that Jesus is the light of our life. He brings us out of darkness and into the light. Jesus is the Light that enlightens us. This obviously does not mean that Jesus teaches his followers systematic theology or things like quantum physics and tensor calculus. It is not strict "head knowledge" or doctrinal truths that we are talking about here. We are talking about a type of enlightenment that may sometimes be associated with Asian religions--or as Christians would say, enlightenment is becoming conscious of the work and convictions of the Holy Spirit.

Lets look at a few more Biblical examples that use the light and darkness metaphors: Paul uses this imagery of light and darkness or blindness in Romans 2:19-20, "If you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark . . .". Hebrews 6:4 speaks of Christians who have been "enlightened" meaning "those who have tasted the heavenly gift", those "who have shared in the holy spirit", and those "who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age." In Ephesians 1:18 Paul prays that "the eyes of the Ephesians may be enlightened in order that they may know the hope to which they have been called." 1 Peter 2:9 speaks of us being called "out of darkness into his wonderful light". Many more verses using the light/darkness imagery are found in the Bible. It should be clear from this that enlightenment is a Biblical image of salvation that entails overcoming the wounds of existence.

Darkness is associated with fear, loneliness and death. It is also much more difficult to navigate in the dark as opposed to movement in the light. Unfortunately for us, the lights have been turned off. We live in the dark and we are largely responsible for putting ourselves there. Though we have ears, we often do not hear. "Though we have eyes, we often do not see. We typically are blind to the glory of God all around us; we do not see each other as God sees us, and we do not see ourselves as God sees us." "Salvation is enlightenment: the opening of our eyes to the presence and glory of God in the world, in each other, and in ourselves." (Borg, pp. 160, 161).

What is even more amazing about enlightenment is the Christian hope of heaven. We believe that this enlightenment is but a shadow of the things to come. Even in our enlightened state we see "but a poor reflection as in a mirror" of that which is to come (1 Cor 13:12)!


Salvation as Food and Drink

Food and drink images are very common in the Bible. They go all the way back to the exodus of Israel from Egypt. In Exodus 16 God provided the grumbling Israelites with bread from heaven. They called it manna and ate it for over forty years according to v. 35. In Exodus 17 God provided the Israelites with water from the rock at Horeb to quench their thirst. Isaiah 55:1-2 offers living water to those who thirst:

1 "Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost.
2 Why spend money on what is not bread,
and your labor on what does not satisfy?
Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.


In Proverbs 9 Wisdom has "built her house". She has "prepared her table" and invites us to come eat the food and "drink the wine" She has mixed. The imagery of food and drink continues well into the New Testament. "The metaphorical use of hunger and thirst can be very powerful. We hunger, often even when we are satiated; we feel empty and long for something more, even though our stomachs may be full. We thirst as if we live in an arid and desert wasteland, our throats dry like parchment." (Borg)

At the Last Supper in Luke Jesus speaks of his followers eating at his table in his kingdom. In Luke 14:15 someone at the table with Jesus says, "Blessed is the man who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God." Marcus Borg laid out numerous other witnesses: "In the synoptic gospels, the feeding of the multitude with a few loaves and fishes echoes Israel's story of being fed by God in the wilderness. In John's gospel, the connection becomes explicit. The Jesus of John refers to the story of manna in the wilderness and then speaks of himself as the true bread from heaven.: "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will will never be hungry." Drink imagery is also used by John. In the story of the wedding at Cana, Jesus provides the wine that never runs out. In Jesus' conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well, Jesus is the one who gives "living water" and says, "Those who drink of the water that I will give them will never be thirsty." Salvation is having one's thirst quenched, one's deepest hunger satisfied." (Borg, p. 165).

Salvation as Experiencing the Love of God

The love of God abounds in both the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures. In Isa 54:10 God says "my unfailing love for you will not be shaken". Psalm 6:4 and many other verses speak of God's "unfailing love". Psalm 17:17 speaks of the wonder of God's great love. Psalm 26:3 says that God's love is ever before us. Psalm 36:5 says, "Your love, oh Lord, reaches to the heavens." There are many more passages speaking of God's love in the Hebrew Scriptures. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

In the Christian Scriptures John 3:16 says that "God so loved the world." Ephesians 2:4 speaks of "God's great love for us." In Eph. 3:17-19 Paul prays that "you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God." In Eph. 5:1 Paul speaks of us as "dearly loved children". In Romans 5:8 "God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." In Col 3:12 Paul speaks of us "as God's chosen people" who are "dearly loved". Titus 3:4 speaks of the "kindness and love of God". 1 John 3:1 proclaims, "How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God!" 1 John 4:6 says that we rely on God's love and that "God is love!" Jude 1:21 tells us to "keep ourselves in God's love". Romans 8:38-39 is one of the most inspiring passages in the whole Bible: "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


God's love receives much attention in the Bible and rightly so. But not everyone understands that God loves them. Many people think of God as silent and impersonal.The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was not convincing the world that he doesn't exist. His greatest trick was convincing us that God doesn't love us or care about us. The wounds of existence cloud God's nature and distort his abundant love for us. Many people view God as a finger pointing judge up in the sky that burdens us with silly rules rather than as a loving and caring father who is zealously concerned with the well being of his children. The children he loves so much that, as Jesus said, the hairs on our heads are numbered! To experience God's love or to simply know that God loves you changes everything. Experiencing God's love is salvific.

"This understanding of salvation is closely related, though not identical, to that of salvation as forgiveness. It is similar in that it involves a transformation in self-understanding from "condemned" or "rejected" to "beloved of God." But knowing the love of God can also heal other wounds. Some people have a sense of being worthless, of little account, unlovely and loveless. For such people, salvation means being able to hear and internalize Isaiah's words about how God regards us: "You are precious in my eyes, and honored, and I love you." To know that one is not worthless but precious, not unlovely and lovelss but beloved by God, is a salvific experience. To know, as Robert Bondi put it, that God is besotted with us changes everything." (Borg p. 163)

Salvation as the Kingdom of God

According to the first three gospels the kingdom of God is the most substantial aspect of Jesus' teaching and it was a salvific image. In Matthew it is called the Kingdom of Heaven but it means the same thing as in Luke and Mark.One very important aspect of salvation being seen as the Kingdom of God is that it underlines the communal and political aspects of salvation.Some might call it the already but not yet kingdom of God. "For Jesus, the kingdom of God is both a social vision (and thus future) and a present reality (whose power is already at work and which can be known in the present).

As a social vision, it points to a way of living together in which, to use the language of the beatitudes, the destitute are blessed, and the hungry are filled. As a present reality, the "kingdom of God" points to living under the kingship of God instead of under the kings and lords of this world. Those rival lords are political, cultural, and psychological. Theimage thus connects to the exodus story as well: one is liberated from bondage to the lords of this world by living under the kingship of God." (Borg p. 166)

Gooch's dad

Vinnie, I am impressed with your deep knowledge of atonement theology, but why did it have to be explained by people like Aquinas and others?

If Jesus was God, why didn't he actually write this stuff down in a really clear manner, tell his disciples to hold onto the writings until after he was gone, then spread the news?

There is next to nothing in the first three gospels at all about Jesus saying that he would die as an atonement for our sins. As seebs pointed out to me, the ceremony of the Last Supper is about as close as you can get to Jesus calling himself a sacrifice.

As for Carrie's list, I think it is excellent. The tortured explanations by Christian and (ugh) Old Man to justify the Levitical rape laws just disgusted me. Why not just make a law that the man who rapes a woman has to hand over his entire estate to the woman and become her servant?

Cheers,

-Kelly

Vinnie

Good questions but I have to run to work now. I'll try to contact seebs and get him in here as well later.

Vinnie

Christian

Carrie,

On slavery, Christians led the slow shift in public opinion in the US by using scripture to argue against slavery. Ever read the book of Philemon?

On "why blood" I'm participaint in this thread on that topic if you are interested.

That is one social reform God did not choose to make during the Mosaic Law. I don't know why.

That said, one thing to keep in mind is that slavery in ancient Israel differed from the American version is at least 2 ways.

1 - There were no racial overtones. Most slaves were Jews, and got that way through no being able to pay back debt. America is one of the few cultures in history where an entire race of people were dehumanized through slavery. The hatred and bias you associate with slavery in America was mostly absent in ancient Israel.
2 - Slavery was not a permanent condition then. As a matter of fact, the Mosaic Law mandated that fact.

Respectfully,

Christian

Justin70

"If Jesus was God, why didn't he actually write this stuff down in a really clear manner, tell his disciples to hold onto the writings until after he was gone, then spread the news?"

You would think that a omniscient and omnipotent being could think of a really good way to preserve the information throughout the ages. Do those wrappers that comics come in last that long?

Woman

Christian:Well, I am certainly glad someone pointed that out to me. On behalf of white-slavers everywhere, who now feel vindicated, thank-you for setting the record straight on just WHY slavery is icky. It's only undesirable if the slaves are a different ethnicity than the slavers AND if they are held in captivity for less than a life time. WHEW!

Once again I am humbled by the ability of Christian/Christians to do an elegant River Dance step 'round and about to justify and explain that which is unjustifiable and inexplicable. The methods used are astoundingly familiar and yet I can't quite put my finger on it....wait...ahhh yes! Every slippery defense attorney and snake-oil salesman will recognize the dance.

Please spare us. Just admit that you have this myth which satisfies some deep seated need and you fully intend to defend it come hell (oops) or high water (oops again) against anything as obviously Satan-spawned as logic, commonsense, compassion, morality or decency. Wouldn't that just be easier on you?

JEST2ASK

Leviticus 25: 39 And if one of your breathern who dwells by you becomes poor, and sells himself to you ... you shall not compel him to serve as a slave.(40) As a hired servant and a sojouner he shall be with you and shall serve you until the year of Jubilee..

However 44: And as your male and female slaves whom you have from the nations that are around you from them you may buy male and female slaves.(45) Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they begat in your land , and they shall become your property. etc etc


FYI

orac

Here's a hint for you:

God's self-appointed spokespeople benefited from slavery.

Or perhaps they just forgot to mention what God said about slavery being wrong. Yeah, that's got to be it. The alternative is they made it up to serve themselves.

(I'll assume you're a decent person, so won't try to argue that slavery is or was morally acceptable. Yes, I know you attempted to justify slavery in the past by saying it wasn't quite so bad - I'm really trying to assume you're a decent person, against all the evidence.)