Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jamie_L · 03-12-2003, 12:08 PM

A Jewish friend of mine from college has since joined the orthodox wing of his faith. He seems very into it, and also seems happy. Different strokes, I tell myself. Recently I learned he has a newborn - his first child. As a happy parent myself, I am happy for him.

However, as his second round of pics came by e-mail, I realized I was having other feelings about his childbirth. Somewhere in the back of my mind, I discovered, I was feeling sorry for this child. I was looking at pictures of this blank-slate little creature and thinking what a shame that his head would be filled with orthodox religion from the very moment it was capable of being filled.

This is a strange feeling - one I've never had in a specific sense about a specific child - especially a child of someone I know personally and used to hang out with all the time. I feel somehow wrong for having these feelings - as if it's not right for me to feel this about my friend's child. And yet, I still feel my feelings are justified, and that is is a shame that this child will be indoctrinated into a faith not of his choosing. I've badmouthed this kind of thing in general many times, but having these thoughts about a specific child is a whole new experience.

Strange. Reinforcement, I suppose, of my notion that as an atheist I am indeed a stranger in a strange land.

Jamie

Toto · 03-12-2003, 12:18 PM

Don't worry. Kids have a habit of rejecting their parent's religion. There is an outbreak of religious conservatism today because the previous generation was more or less secular, and their kids rebelled. The next generation will have to go back to secularism to rebel.

thebeave · 03-12-2003, 07:29 PM

I get those same feelings too when I see a Muslim couple with their young children around town. Many people seem to think its sweet and cute and heartwarming to see such a family like this living in America, but deep down I truly feel sorry for the poor kid who's life ahead of him will be dictated by what some Middle Eastern madman said in the 8th century. Here's how you have to dress....here's what you can eat and not eat... here's how you have to take a crap...interrupt what you are doing to pray five times a day to a non-existent being... do not go to the beach on a nice sunny day in a swimsuit and play in the surf. So sad.

Abel Stable · 03-12-2003, 09:24 PM

That thought has crossed my mind before, but you shouldn't be sad about it. The child has entered life as an individual- which is almost hard to picture because human babies are the defining image of vulnerability. As long as the parents raise them with love & respect, at the very least, then it isn't so bad. When the child grows into their own person and really discovers the world for the first time, anything is apt to happen. I realize that sounds awkward, but I just know that there was some moment in my life where my awareness changed. It was probably when I started college, although I can't recall a specific spark, and I felt the same thing going on in a lot of my friends. Anyway, the point is we shouldn't fear for the child just because they will have a religious upbringing (most do), but because of our general vulnerabilities as humans. So in essence...I guess my point is...life's a bitch? Well okay, I like her pedigree

But it does get a bit uncomfortable. Seeing new generations of religious partisans being raised is discouraging since the two things that religions do best is to divide people & make them unpleasant to one another. I think Ben Franklin might have said that. Either way, I agree.

callmejay · 03-13-2003, 11:02 AM

I was raised an Orthodox Jew and I turned out okay.

Seriously though, in my experience, most of the orthodox jews I know (and I know a lot) are very happy about it. There doesn't seem to be that self-hatred/tremendous guilt/etc. problem that is talked about a lot on this board with regard to fundy christians. It might be because of the heavy emphasis on learning (usually including secular learning.) I was "Modern" Orthodox though. "Ultra-" Orthodox might be worse. Of course, there are also those of us who just couldn't buy into it, and the leaving process was pretty rough.

beth · 03-14-2003, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Don't worry. Kids have a habit of rejecting their parent's religion. There is an outbreak of religious conservatism today because the previous generation was more or less secular, and their kids rebelled. The next generation will have to go back to secularism to rebel.

I agree with this. My kids were raised in church and dedicated to god as infants. We still attend church to appease my husband. My son refuses to sing the hymns and he has questioned theological doctrine since he was around four. I really think that my son is very close to turning against the idea of Christianity and a god, I am glad for this.(Not that I want to force my ideas on him. I still pray with them and 'act' Christian around them. I just think fundamentalism is unhealthy.) My daughter, well I'm not sure how it will go for her, but I truly don't think either one of my kids will be very religious as adults even though they are raised in church.

Bubba · 03-14-2003, 11:35 AM

I agree with the godless godess. I am Christian leaning heavily towards deconversion. My oldest daughtewr is fundy and my oldest son is questioning several of the ideas of Christianity. Kids learn to think for themselves if we want them to or not.

Bubba

Jamie_L · 03-14-2003, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bubba
Kids learn to think for themselves if we want them to or not.

Kids can learn to think for themselves, but I think it's hardly a given. I'd say kids raised in a religion-free/religion-neutral environment have a much better chance to rationally examine competing beliefs than those raised with constant indoctrination.

One can always hope.

Jamie

Non-praying Mantis · 03-17-2003, 02:08 PM

Kids might be able to learn to think for themselves...

...but that poor kid's penis will never be the same!

NPM

OCLonghorn · 03-18-2003, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by blondegoddess
...My kids were raised in church and dedicated to god as infants. We still attend church to appease my husband...I really think that my son is very close to turning against the idea of Christianity and a god, I am glad for this.(Not that I want to force my ideas on him.

Why do we (I am guilty of it too) think this way? Why is telling my own kids "Not only do I not believe in this god-concept, but I don't think you should either" MORE intrusive than physically TAKING him to church to be indoctrinated before he develops critical thinking skills?

I find myself feeling the same way (obviously because of our society and the fact that I was raised catholic) and have to literally remind myself that I OWE it to them to teach them the way that I think is closer to the truth.

If my spouse, an equal partner in the rearing of these kids, disagreed (which she doesn't, but obviously in your case he does) , then maybe you have to equivocate a bit to avoid contradicting each other and confusing the kids. But I don't feel that you have to do the same just because society at large feels differently.

03-12-2003, 12:08 PM	#1
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Religious friend has newborn - I feel odd A Jewish friend of mine from college has since joined the orthodox wing of his faith. He seems very into it, and also seems happy. Different strokes, I tell myself. Recently I learned he has a newborn - his first child. As a happy parent myself, I am happy for him. However, as his second round of pics came by e-mail, I realized I was having other feelings about his childbirth. Somewhere in the back of my mind, I discovered, I was feeling sorry for this child. I was looking at pictures of this blank-slate little creature and thinking what a shame that his head would be filled with orthodox religion from the very moment it was capable of being filled. This is a strange feeling - one I've never had in a specific sense about a specific child - especially a child of someone I know personally and used to hang out with all the time. I feel somehow wrong for having these feelings - as if it's not right for me to feel this about my friend's child. And yet, I still feel my feelings are justified, and that is is a shame that this child will be indoctrinated into a faith not of his choosing. I've badmouthed this kind of thing in general many times, but having these thoughts about a specific child is a whole new experience. Strange. Reinforcement, I suppose, of my notion that as an atheist I am indeed a stranger in a strange land. Jamie

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03-12-2003, 12:18 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Don't worry. Kids have a habit of rejecting their parent's religion. There is an outbreak of religious conservatism today because the previous generation was more or less secular, and their kids rebelled. The next generation will have to go back to secularism to rebel.

03-12-2003, 07:29 PM	#3
thebeave Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Silicon Valley, CA Posts: 4,183	I get those same feelings too when I see a Muslim couple with their young children around town. Many people seem to think its sweet and cute and heartwarming to see such a family like this living in America, but deep down I truly feel sorry for the poor kid who's life ahead of him will be dictated by what some Middle Eastern madman said in the 8th century. Here's how you have to dress....here's what you can eat and not eat... here's how you have to take a crap...interrupt what you are doing to pray five times a day to a non-existent being... do not go to the beach on a nice sunny day in a swimsuit and play in the surf. So sad.

03-12-2003, 09:24 PM	#4
Abel Stable Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 356	That thought has crossed my mind before, but you shouldn't be sad about it. The child has entered life as an individual- which is almost hard to picture because human babies are the defining image of vulnerability. As long as the parents raise them with love & respect, at the very least, then it isn't so bad. When the child grows into their own person and really discovers the world for the first time, anything is apt to happen. I realize that sounds awkward, but I just know that there was some moment in my life where my awareness changed. It was probably when I started college, although I can't recall a specific spark, and I felt the same thing going on in a lot of my friends. Anyway, the point is we shouldn't fear for the child just because they will have a religious upbringing (most do), but because of our general vulnerabilities as humans. So in essence...I guess my point is...life's a bitch? Well okay, I like her pedigree But it does get a bit uncomfortable. Seeing new generations of religious partisans being raised is discouraging since the two things that religions do best is to divide people & make them unpleasant to one another. I think Ben Franklin might have said that. Either way, I agree.

03-13-2003, 11:02 AM	#5
callmejay Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 466	I was raised an Orthodox Jew and I turned out okay. Seriously though, in my experience, most of the orthodox jews I know (and I know a lot) are very happy about it. There doesn't seem to be that self-hatred/tremendous guilt/etc. problem that is talked about a lot on this board with regard to fundy christians. It might be because of the heavy emphasis on learning (usually including secular learning.) I was "Modern" Orthodox though. "Ultra-" Orthodox might be worse. Of course, there are also those of us who just couldn't buy into it, and the leaving process was pretty rough.

03-14-2003, 11:35 AM	#7
Bubba Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orient, OH USA Posts: 1,501	I agree with the godless godess. I am Christian leaning heavily towards deconversion. My oldest daughtewr is fundy and my oldest son is questioning several of the ideas of Christianity. Kids learn to think for themselves if we want them to or not. Bubba

03-17-2003, 02:08 PM	#9
Non-praying Mantis Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Roanoke, VA, USA Posts: 2,646	Kids might be able to learn to think for themselves... ...but that poor kid's penis will never be the same! NPM

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