Sabine Grant

This is your post requesting that I provide definitions..... which I did. There is no sense you then complaining that I would ask you to check some definitions in a thread where we obviously followed different definitions.
I think the case is closed.

Sabine Grant

Not only did I provide a response to BRETTC who asked me to check the definition of humanism but I supported it by citing my father as an example of a humanist. Your remarks in regard to that example were undecent and unacceptable based on no personal data but the need to demean that example and dismiss it. Why it made you so uncomfortable as I described my father's behavior intimately related to his humanistic convictions is definitly between you and your mind. Or your conscience.
I will leave you with it..... there is a potential in each human being to reflect privatly on the consequences of their words.

Biff the unclean

Because you have no concept of what Humanism is, but made up your own personal definition. Because Humanism had nothing to do with the thread.

But what the Hell, you win. This thread is derailed and dead as a door nail.
You could have it stuffed and hung on your wall with the heads of the other threads you've bagged

Biff the unclean

Convinced yet?

Nowhere357

I definitely agree the thread has been derailed.

I'm also definitely convinced that an omniscient creator, and personal free will, are a direct contradiction. And I don't understand why I still find the subject interesting.

I think it must be the amusement factor.

BadBadBad

We started this thread with a preacher admitting that it doesn't make sense. "We cannot understand god and we cannot understand this subject." That's about as close as you're ever going to get to "No, your right. It doesn't make a lick of sense to me either, and I see your point, salvation is a pretty big item to leave in such a mess. Maybe you're right. This God busisness is starting to sound like a bunch of bunk."

What did we expect? Did we get any better? I think we got worse. We have Tarnaack repeating the same God predestines us based upon foreknowledge of our choices. There's no support from the Bible. There's no answer to my requests for some basis for that position. Then we have Sabine that offers us her divine experience based upon personal walks with Jesus as the authoritative basis for their position. Well, that really settled it for me.

Derailed? Where did we think this train was going anyway?

Tarnaak

I think the problem with atheist understanding of predestination is that the Bible states that certain people are chosen by God. The Bible speaks of the Jews being predestined, but the rest of us Gentiles are still capable of being saved through Faith.

Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel KJV


Does this explain it? Or do I need to cite every instance with an explanation?

Biff the unclean

That's good except it isn't the Atheists that have a problem with understanding. The bible is loaded with plot problems like this predestination one, character development problems, continuity problems (Jesus is in the desert fasting and getting Satan behind him at the exact same time he is turning water into wine at a party) and huge fact checking problems (God creates the Earth and Sky but they are nothing like our Earth and sky). We understand quite well…the book is a poorly written work of fiction.
Where Theists have a big problem is that they are such big fans of the story that they have convinced themselves against all logic that it is real. Then when they get to problems in the story like the superhero's magic power contradicts a plot point.
There are roughly the same number of quotes in the bible that say you are saved by acts as say you are saved by magical grace. They contradict each other but Theists turn a blind eye to one or the other and go through torturous mental gymnastics to "prove" that the one they like is the real one.
But Tarnaak, the answer is very, very simple…it's a mistake. One of a vast number of mistakes that show the book to be a work of fiction, a poorly crafted novel. There's nothing deep here, no mystery just sloppiness

BadBadBad

No, of course it doesn't explain it. The verse you've supplied doesn't say any of the things you've been saying. Not one thing you've just said. Not one thing you've been saying. If you do ever find any "instance," of course you'll have to "explain" it since the Bible never says what you claim it does. If you produce Bible verses that say what you've been saying, I'll be happy to be educated, and I'll gladly admit I was wrong. Until then, the Bible does say exactly what we've been saying. No explanation is required.


You, Sabine, church leaders, and apologists for 2000 years are no different from the authors of the Bible themselves. You add a little bit to the story as you go. You take what others have written. You blur their mistakes. You expand on their philosophy. You attribute what you add to God's inspiration, and to you and others it becomes the truth. We as atheists have a different standard for truth and fact.

Perhaps we should get a few "well connected" christians to write a few new chapters, hold a council of churches, have a vote, and by the power of God canonize your version of christianity. Then we could straighten this whole mess out and put all this to bed once and for all. What do you think?

AJ113

Ephesians 1
10....to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

Explain this, please. No sign of any Jews here.