Ab_Normal

My daughter attends public school, and of the list above, the only one I've noticed is Santa Claus, mentioned in some carols during the Xmas concert. And they sang some Xian carols at the same concert, too.

I attended public high school, and the only exposure I had to those topics were: 1) we sang religious (aka Xian) music in choir, mostly in the original Latin, and 2) I took a Mythology class which covered Sumerian, Greek, Roman, and Norse beliefs from an anthropological perspective (IIRC, that was a long time ago).

Believe you me, if they started trying to teach my kid belief in any sort of religious, mystical, or pseudo-scientific bunk, be it Xian, new age, or pagan, I'd be all over the teacher, the prinicpal, the superintendent, and the school board like white on rice.

As a parent, I believe it's my job to civilize my child, not the school. Anyway, there are plenty of ways to transmit civilized values without invoking any sort of theistic belief. Every law-abiding Infidel who was raised without religion amply demonstrates this.

admice

dk, you're jumping all over in terms of subject and making many unsubstantiated claims.

Kindly back them up. Also, if you find the US such a poor place to live, you are free to leave (don't know if you live in the US now, but exit visas are not difficult to get.)

I think most of you are incorrect about the AUTHORIZED curricula in public schools today. I have child in school (almost out) several relatives who are teachers, have lived and dealt with school districts in 4 states: none of the one's I know of have non-secular curriculae.

If prayer and such occur, my guess is it's an individual acting without sanction from the state and any contest of it would be upheld.

Check your information.

dk

No, I'm pointing out that all formal education is systematic and begins with dogma. The optimal word being formal, as in "form the student". Education in a free democracy rests on the concept that people with good values naturally become good citizens. To often our public schools attempt to play the middle against both ends, to socialize informal lessons under the precipice of formal governmental authority. This amounts to social engineering by government edict. Correctly stated, educational institutions serve to transmit formal values from one generation to the next to serve the community, not engineer a social utopia. Parents need to be informed about the dogma public schools teach. The problem with social engineering in a democracy is demagoguery. In a free society an honest person, institution or government agency declares their intended goal and biases, then works towards that goal by ethical means. Our public education starts with the deception of an egalitarian school campus artificially engineered and sustained by a rigid bureaucratic hierarchy. Most kids don’t respect public schools, teachers or fellow students because they recognize the environment for what it is, a mask designed to hide the face of hypocrisy.
Secular dogma conforms to the principles, 1) all knowledge follows from sense-experience 2) Everything real is rational. 3) Everything else is transcendental moonshine. I’ll grant you this is a problematic definition. Most teachers don’t have a clue what distinguishes secular from religious dogma, and the ascetics of art have no place in secular dogma. Believe it or not I have great empathy for educators who through no fault of their own are placed in an untenable poslition.

admice

duplicate-time delay??

dk

dk: My niece participated in Native American rituals in a religious studies class, and I have a friend whose kid was given lessons on Buddhist Meditation by a counselor under the guise of therapy. I would be offended with a class that performed the Catholic Mass in public school. Personal experience is at best antidotal, but I think everyone’s religion should be treated with respect. In my opinion the problem of religion stems from ignorance about religion.
You have heard of Halloween/All Saints Day, if you can find a single public school that celebrates All Saints Day I concede.
Have you read the highly publicized case in Utah about a school choirs doing a Christmas Concert. It made it to a Federal Curts in Utah before being dismissed, and the Supreme Court refused to hear the case. The ADU and ACLU are still looking for a another test case. You might want to ask your public school principle or superintend for a policy statement on the matter. I’ve asked, and they would prefer to avoid the legal expenses. In effect the cost of potential litigation is the deterrent.
I’ve talked with several Christians high school students about Easter, most are unable to distinguish between the Pagan and the Christian rights. Every Easter I make it a point to engage young people in this very conversation.
dk: I would agree, so do you object to Halloween?
dk: That works for me. Hey, do you think the armed guards, metal detectors, security cameras and zero tolerance policies that rule most public high schools civilize the students?

dk

dk:

1. gravitybow: Religion is not absent from the educational environment (school).
   dk: Ok, let me clarify, a) In a secularized curriculum religious values are absent. b) in a secularized school religious principles are absent. For example in the Christian tradition the nuclear family is often considered the “Domestic Church”. Children are taught that marriage is a “sacred right” full of grace, consummated by the Marriage Act. As such Marriage becomes a death do you part commitment, and sex commensurate with the Marital Act. A good Christian family sends their kids off to public school where they are taught safe sex is a right of passage, and divorce solves the problems caused by the commitment of marriage. The outcome has already played out in our society with a 30% unmarried parent (up from 3% in 1955), and a 50% divorce rate (up from 5% in 1955). Two big questions comes to mind, 1) Has public education become hostile to religion? 2) has public education become hostile to the nuclear family? I think after you get done factoring in the Sexual Revolution, Divorce Reform, and Radical Feminism many people have concluded public education is hostile to family and religion, but the government did not intend hostility.
2. gravitybow: Only the coercive power of the government to mandate prayers and observances has been curtailed. Students, however, are free to exercise their constitutional rights to recite prayers, read religious texts of their choosing, congregate in groups, establish clubs, pass flyers, make invitations, etc. as long as they are not disruptive.
   dk: Let me translated this into the practical realities. Students that wish to exercise their religious liberty in public school are dragged, with their schools, through the courts. Responsible public schools are hostile to religion to avoid the cost of litigation. Recently even secular prayers like the “Pledge of Allegiance” have been challenged and this brings into question the constitutionality of the Declaration of Independence and Gettysburg Address. It is possible even probable that secular prayers and icons may become an issue in the near future. For example many Moslems and Jehovah Witnesses consider the Pledge of Allegiance and National Anthem secular prayer with or without the presence of “one nation under God”.
3. gravitybow: "The void" appears to be filled with a wealth of protected opportunities.
   dk:The void has been filled by turning public school bureaucrats and teachers into duly anointed censures for the Federal Courts.

I think the Federal Courts made a big mistake amplifying Judge Blacks interpretation of the Establishment Clause through the 14th Amendment. The result has been detrimental to public education, and the flood of litigation has been detrimental to the Federal Courts. After 50 years the debate continues unabated and divisively. If the Supreme Court thought in 1950 they could settle the issue once and for all, its clear in 2000 they were wrong. We need to wake up and send the debate back to local communities and states courts because there simply isn’t a one size fits all solution to the problem.

dk

dk: No, by religion I mean religion, and by Christianity, Christianity. I have no problem with Hindus proselytizing Christians or visa versa, I do have a problem with goof ball sects like the Branch Davidians or Heavens Gate, whether they are Christian or neo-pagan. I operate from the premise that Faith and Reason are two wings of the same bird, both being necessary for flight, one absent the other is lame. I don’t criticize positivists for being unreasonable, but unfaithful. I don’t criticize Heavens Gate for being unfaithful, but unreasonable. Faith is about conviction but conviction absent reason leads to fanaticism. Reason is about certainty, but certainty absent faith leads to cynicism. By and large the Great religions all agree upon the basic secular necessities for a good life in a modern society; 1) a living family wage, 2) a moral family and community and 3) honest meaningful work. As you already know the devil is in the details.
dk: I agree, the job of indoctrinating a captive audience puts public schools in an untenable position for a number of reasons. But that has nothing to do with religion.
dk: You seem to think that the world will come to an end if school districts are given the liberty to resolve religious problems. I don’t think so. It was front page news when Al Salam Mosque Foundation sued Palos Heights for religious discrimination, but the media glossed over the outcome, “ However the dispute is finally resolved .” The community came together to resolve their own problem without a court order, sanction or injunction. Had the problem been resolved in the federal courts it would have left a sour taste in the mouths of the entire community, Moslem and Christian. The News Media would have loved the drama of the confrontation. But because the community resolved the problem themselves sipping tea the community has found solidarity instead of division.
dk: dk: Hey I recently read an article on this very subject, “ Church, state 'wall' not idea of Jefferson ” : By Larry Witham : THE WASHINGTON TIMES, August 5, 2002.
dk: I think unbiased interested people of every persuasion have gone back to review the Moynihan Report rejected by liberals and academics in 1965 as just more “Blame the victim” rhetoric. Many have been persuaded that the key to public education is a stable nuclear family. The problem is that the edu-cracy born in the 1960s has grown up into an 800 pound gorilla. These people have directed their entire careers by a philosophy that demeans the nuclear family. In the 1960-90s sociologists claimed the nuclear family perpetuating racism, violence and sexism, and educational reformers were indoctrinated to implement a public school solution. Now it appears the nuclear family and good public schools are inextricably linked. Sad to report, but traditional religions of Judism, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, and Buddhists have been hammering out this message for 40 years. The message being, “its family stupid”. Today there is a fundamental disconnect between elite Ivory Tower visionaries, government and the public edu-cracy. The question now becomes, can the huge edu-cracy change course or will it continue to be a destructive force upon public education and the nuclear family. Some say “you can teach an 800 pound gorilla new tricks”, others are more practical and say, “You can’t pour new wine into an old wine skin”.

gravitybow

dk:
Some corrections about your quoting technique:

quote:
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dk: ...The Supreme Court ordered “an impenetrable wall” be erected to separate Church and State...
gravitybow::
Damn that Supreme Court! I heard that they based this ruling on some eighteenth century document written by some guys after some war. A poor way to make rulings, if you ask me.
New research on between church and state shows that Jefferson never intended it to be the iron curtain of today, which instead was built on anti-Catholic legal views in the 1940s.
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I did not say the bold part, but it is attributed to me.


quote:
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Stephen Maturin: In so doing they hobbled, and in many instances crippled, public educators with an agenda unsuited to the purpose of education i.e. to transmit civilized values to the next generation.
As a parent, I believe it's my job to civilize my child, not the school. Anyway, there are plenty of ways to transmit civilized values without invoking any sort of theistic belief. Every law-abiding Infidel who was raised without religion amply demonstrates this.
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The bold part here is attributed to Stephen Maturin, but you are the one who said it.


quote:
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dk: Justice Jackson
Perhaps subjects such as mathematics, physics or chemistry are, or can be, completely secularized.
Stephen Maturin: We already have sciences like these infused with religious doctrine. It's called creation science. Maybe that would fill the void, eh?
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Stephen Maturin didn't say this. I did. (hezekiah jones hinted this to you.)

I'll get to the substance of your latest post when I get a chance, but today is a busy day for me.

Ab_Normal

dk: I think I've found where we differ. I see no problem with children studying religion in school, as long as it is not presented as "This is the one true way to believe". So, I do not object to students learning about the religious aspect of other cultures by emulating their ceremonies - because the belief is not there. Also, I see a distinction between secular and religious aspects of holidays. Halloween in my daughter's school is a purely secular experience. The kids come in their costumes, and the younger ones trick or treat at a nearby mall. I do not perceive this as an endorsement of paganism or Wicca. Same thing with Christmas - I would argue that Santa Claus, though based on a Christian figure, is now purely secular.

I will agree that conditions in many public schools have gotten untenable. However, I will not agree that teaching Christianity as the only true faith in public schools is the solution.

dk

I'm very sorry, I lost track of my responses and will do better in the future. If it saves you any time I'll go ahead and delete the errant post, and respond again. Let me know.