Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jamie_L · 08-27-2002, 04:14 AM

In my opinion, an omnisicent being is only robbed of choice if that being resides inside the flow of linear time like the rest of us, with no power to alter it.

However, I can envision an entity whose perception lies outside linear time. If such a being had sufficient power to alter events, that being would not be without the ability to choose.

If there was a god, this would be the only scenario that would make any sense to me. But then, I don't believe their is a god, so this is just a creative exercise in "what if".

Jamie

Ruy Lopez · 08-27-2002, 05:08 AM

The concept of an omnicient, unknowable, immutable Creator is being mixed up with the Biblical and greek gods. The former represents what God could be if ever there were or is one. The latter are folktales characterized by anthropomorphisms.

Kent's proposition that the omnicient God has no choice is compatible with what God should be. To this "true omnicient creator" past, present and future are all PRESENT. He cannot change what is, was or will be because by definition he is "immutable". If he changes anything, then he changed and is not God as we define him.

Jamie_L · 08-27-2002, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by demon-sword:
He cannot change what is, was or will be because by definition he is "immutable". If he changes anything, then he changed and is not God as we define him.

Well of course a being would have no choices if we define him as having no choices. But I don't think the OP was getting at that. That would be a silly thing to discuss. (i.e. For a being with no choice there is no choice).

Jamie

Kent Stevens · 08-27-2002, 11:01 AM

For the different versions of the fates there is still some degree of choice. The usual thing for someone that prophesies seems to do, is be so vague, cryptic, and general that they still give large room for human choice.

In the Matrix different characters go and see the Oracle. They all get these vague cryptic predictions auch as Morpheus is supposed to find the one. The women Trinity is supposed to love the one. Neo is said not to be the one. Also, Neo is told that he must make a choice either to help Morpheus or not. But the Oracle should know what Neo will do if she any good as a predicter of fate. Or maybe there is a special let off for free will.

There is prediction reaction to what the charcters are told will happen. Morpheus intensifies his search to find the one. Trinity starts looking for Mr. Right. Neo feels slightly despondent that supposedly he is not the one.

If the Oracle had something different then there would have been different prediction reactions. If the Oracle had something really useful like the prediction that Morpheus was going to be betrayed by a certain crew member, then Morpheus could have prevented the deaths of several of his crew. If Trinity had been told that she was going to love Neo she would have set her sites differently. If Neo had been told that he would defeat one of the Matrix agents he might have felt less despondent.

Ruy Lopez · 08-27-2002, 07:29 PM

Jamie L:

In that case, my mistake. I thought the OP wanted to discuss attributes of an infinite omnicient being. What is being discussed are mythical creations that are finite; thus they have a choice by definition.

Jamie_L · 08-28-2002, 04:22 AM

DS:

Touche. I think there's another option, but this morning I'm not much in the mood to speculate about possible variations of entities that I don't think exist. Of course, tomorrow I may feel a bit more plucky.

Later,

Jamie

Ruy Lopez · 08-28-2002, 05:35 AM

It's OK Jamie_L. Would be glad to read your other option. Just realized that people are engaging in sensible conversation and exchanging constructs. It's not like there are right answers.

If I get around to developing further my idea and constructing its supporting logic, I'll post.

Kent Stevens · 08-28-2002, 04:05 PM

If god exists outside of linear time what proof would there be of this. Perhaps we can think that Santa Claus exists outside of linear time and space. This is how he is able to delver billions of Christmas presents on one day each day. But this is a fantastic explanation which could apply to any mythical figure such as Zeus, Jupiter, the tooth fairy, or the easter bunny. The problem with simple reasoning is that it can be wrongly used to argue anything, which includes the existence of a delusion.

08-28-2002, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kent Stevens:
<strong>If god exists outside of linear time what proof would there be of this. Perhaps we can think that Santa Claus exists outside of linear time and space. This is how he is able to delver billions of Christmas presents on one day each day. </strong>

Good point Kent and just as God is outside of time and space so is Santa Claus because what the idea of Santa Claus is for children the idea of God is for adults.

Both require acceptance by faith which is followed by a period of doubt and the removal of both doubt and faith must come through understanding.

Deluded only are those who fail to remove faith through understanding and are left with much doubt and insufficient faith to be resolved in the final rout between faith and doubt. I think Plato called this the Ultimate Form and is also called Final round of Samsara, Christ-mass or Parousia.

Kent Stevens · 08-29-2002, 10:47 AM

So if you have an adult that still believes in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy, but "understands", they are not deluded.

Anyway, religion is the exception to things that we classify as delusion or madness. I believe in having a society tolerant of other beliefs, but I am clear on what I think of religion.

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08-27-2002, 04:14 AM	#21
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	In my opinion, an omnisicent being is only robbed of choice if that being resides inside the flow of linear time like the rest of us, with no power to alter it. However, I can envision an entity whose perception lies outside linear time. If such a being had sufficient power to alter events, that being would not be without the ability to choose. If there was a god, this would be the only scenario that would make any sense to me. But then, I don't believe their is a god, so this is just a creative exercise in "what if". Jamie

08-27-2002, 05:08 AM	#22
Ruy Lopez Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Manila Posts: 5,516	The concept of an omnicient, unknowable, immutable Creator is being mixed up with the Biblical and greek gods. The former represents what God could be if ever there were or is one. The latter are folktales characterized by anthropomorphisms. Kent's proposition that the omnicient God has no choice is compatible with what God should be. To this "true omnicient creator" past, present and future are all PRESENT. He cannot change what is, was or will be because by definition he is "immutable". If he changes anything, then he changed and is not God as we define him.

08-27-2002, 11:01 AM	#24
Kent Stevens Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 484	For the different versions of the fates there is still some degree of choice. The usual thing for someone that prophesies seems to do, is be so vague, cryptic, and general that they still give large room for human choice. In the Matrix different characters go and see the Oracle. They all get these vague cryptic predictions auch as Morpheus is supposed to find the one. The women Trinity is supposed to love the one. Neo is said not to be the one. Also, Neo is told that he must make a choice either to help Morpheus or not. But the Oracle should know what Neo will do if she any good as a predicter of fate. Or maybe there is a special let off for free will. There is prediction reaction to what the charcters are told will happen. Morpheus intensifies his search to find the one. Trinity starts looking for Mr. Right. Neo feels slightly despondent that supposedly he is not the one. If the Oracle had something different then there would have been different prediction reactions. If the Oracle had something really useful like the prediction that Morpheus was going to be betrayed by a certain crew member, then Morpheus could have prevented the deaths of several of his crew. If Trinity had been told that she was going to love Neo she would have set her sites differently. If Neo had been told that he would defeat one of the Matrix agents he might have felt less despondent.

08-27-2002, 07:29 PM	#25
Ruy Lopez Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Manila Posts: 5,516	Jamie L: In that case, my mistake. I thought the OP wanted to discuss attributes of an infinite omnicient being. What is being discussed are mythical creations that are finite; thus they have a choice by definition.

08-28-2002, 04:22 AM	#26
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	DS: Touche. I think there's another option, but this morning I'm not much in the mood to speculate about possible variations of entities that I don't think exist. Of course, tomorrow I may feel a bit more plucky. Later, Jamie

08-28-2002, 05:35 AM	#27
Ruy Lopez Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Manila Posts: 5,516	It's OK Jamie_L. Would be glad to read your other option. Just realized that people are engaging in sensible conversation and exchanging constructs. It's not like there are right answers. If I get around to developing further my idea and constructing its supporting logic, I'll post.

08-28-2002, 04:05 PM	#28
Kent Stevens Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 484	If god exists outside of linear time what proof would there be of this. Perhaps we can think that Santa Claus exists outside of linear time and space. This is how he is able to delver billions of Christmas presents on one day each day. But this is a fantastic explanation which could apply to any mythical figure such as Zeus, Jupiter, the tooth fairy, or the easter bunny. The problem with simple reasoning is that it can be wrongly used to argue anything, which includes the existence of a delusion.

08-29-2002, 10:47 AM	#30
Kent Stevens Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 484	So if you have an adult that still believes in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy, but "understands", they are not deluded. Anyway, religion is the exception to things that we classify as delusion or madness. I believe in having a society tolerant of other beliefs, but I am clear on what I think of religion.

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