wildernesse

I called you a vigilante because you looked positively upon a man shooting and killing an unarmed and convicted person in your courthouse story in your secular support thread.

I still can't believe that any rational person would or could support this sort of vigilante justice.

You used this example and tjen continued to talk about your goals of eliminating the big 3 religions. It makes me uneasy and does not strengthen your claim that you are a tolerant person able to allow people to believe what they choose.

When you talk about people attacking you on tv/radio, you sound like some other people I know who say that their children are being influenced by the "homos" and sex, etc. in the media. You know what, turn the freaking channel. Good grief.

--tibac

wildernesse

That quote has been attributed to George H.W. Bush, so technically it isn't our President speaking anymore.

Who thinks you are those things and who does that eliminate? How do you propose defending yourself from these people waging war (who are for the most part oblivious to their cause)?

--tibac

tdekeyser

THE_LEGENDARY_HQB

Man, this has become quite an emotional thread, eh?

An observation.

The analogy of locking up Jerry Falwell and Tdekseyer in a room and allowing them to "duke it out" is a false one.

One of the dirty little secrets of American Liberal Christians, encapsulated by "The Religious Right is neither", bumperstickers that are so popular amongst them, is that the Religous Right is merely practicing their religion, which is...Christianity!
Of course, noone does everything[/B] the Bible commands, but I'd wager that Jerry Falwell practices a lot more of it than Barry Lynn {I'd also wager that Mr. Lynn is much nicer, kinder, more compassionate human beingprecisely[/B] because he doesn't take the Bible as literally!}

Does the "average Christian" pose a threat to me as an atheist? Obviously no.
However, the "average Christian" practices a form of cafeteria Christianity that has little to do with actual Biblical teaching.

We should all be thankful that Liberal Christians have created, in effect, their own religion, devoid of the more offensive dogmas of the Christian faith.
They have simply discarded the parts they don't agree with, and which, incidentally, also don't agree with any modern half way civilized society.

This makes their "religion" even more absurd, since, once you've discarded even one part of the Bible, the rest, by default, cannot be understood as "The Truth"[TM]

Of course, as people, they're usually so much nicer!

I'm, torn on this issue. On the one hand, I don't believe in intolerance per se, yet I see all around me a concerted effort to force Christianity upon me in education, culture, government, and law. Is this solely the efforts of 5 old men in a dark room, or are they getting support from millions upon millions of "Ordinary Christians"?

Perhaps we should ban any sect that claims Biblical Inerrancy, since they seem to cause the most trouble?

That would leave plenty of room for the lovey dovey, syrupy, cafeteria Christians out there {the majority, IMO}.
Who knows, without the Fundies to make them feel guilty, they might just become Unitarians!

I guess what I'm trying to say is this. It's a free country. If a Christian, Jew, Muslim, or whatever wants to practice his beliefs, in peace, I have no quarrel with him, and I'll labor mightily to defend his rights.

However, the moment anyone tries to thrust his religion in my face, or tries to force me to follow his "faith based morality", or tries to use my taxpayer dollars to teach his absurd creation myths in the public schools, all bets are off.

I will make every effort to not only stop him, but, if I need to, I'll go a step further, and point out how ludicrous his beliefs are.
In some ways, hyperbole aside, this is war, and in war, tolerance for the enemy = defeat. The stakes are just too high.

Respect,
Shon HQB

{Please note that the "war" of which I speak is not being fought against the average religionist, merely against a large minority of them who delight in lording over people}

brighid

I think it is really dangerous when we fail to separate the person from an identification system, whether that is religious, ethnic, racial, gender or sexual orientation. In ALL cases we MUST judge people on an individual basis regardless of our own prejudices, established stereotypes or otherwise and judge those individuals based upon the content of their character and the fruits of their actions.

There is a war going on in America, but it is against ideologies and certain people and groups. Those specific people and groups who have directly expressed those bigotries, hatreds, and perpetrated injustices! It is not with individuals, who neither proscribes to those ideas, taking those actions and who have only general commonalities: such as the color of their skin, the essence of their creed or any other affiliation.

We cannot, in good conscience, lump all Christians into the same category as Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Bob Jones or any of the other vocal proponents of hate and intolerance simply because each of them calls himself a Christian. This is NO better then their accusations against every atheist, pagan, Jew, feminist, etc. We are all NOT the same, even if we label ourselves similarly.

If we are EVER to rise above the ills we seek to “defend” ourselves against we cannot become like those that wish to enslave us out of some sense of righteous indignation. There is a time to fight, but often times fighting fire with fire only gets you burned.

Religious history is riddled with death, mayhem, destruction and all sorts of other vile stories. But we all know these things are done by men, motivated by a desire to be like Gods and even motivated by the very texts they call Holy. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of men to accept the consequences of their actions as there is no God to inspire or protect us from ourselves, or else the world would not be such a random, and at times horribly unjust place. Christianity and it's texts are not without responsibility, but we should not kill them all and let God, or in this case Reason sort out the true from the untrue.

Gandhi said, “Proved right should be capable of being vindicated by right means as against the rude i.e. sanguinary means. Man may and should shed his own blood for establishing what he considers to be his right. He may not shed the blood of his opponent who disputes his 'right'”

This battle will not be won through perpetuating the cycle of intolerance, justifying in “self-defense”, but by fighting those who are actually responsible for doing the harm and espousing the beliefs.

I personally think more Christians need to speak out against those rabid Christians who steal the spotlight and insight acrimony and encourage intolerance and hatred. The counter-response to such things has been and is weak. Unfortunately, most people are too embroiled in the goings of their own day-to-day life to notice what is going on in the world. Many more feel helpless in advancing change, even if they disagree. Some are fearful and other could simply care less.

We should aspire to be better then our enemies. We should do what is right for nothing more then the sake of its rightness. We should not encourage violence, intolerance or respond to hate with further hate. We can defeat our enemies through exercising our civic duties, organizing, disseminating accurate and balanced information and extending our hand to the moderate and liberal communities in peace and respect. We are not yet at the point where we have no other choice then to defend ourselves with force. Let us actively work to prevent it and NOT alienate those theist men and women who do share our basic beliefs of freedom, mercy, justice, and independent thought. We need not agree on God in order to work to protect each other’s basic human rights and civil liberties. After all – there is at least one thing we have in common – our humanity and the inherent dignity and respect that common thread should inspire.

Brighid

tdekeyser

Wilderness,

I guess you are not affected by the stuff going on today right? Well it effects me.

I know people killed by fundies on 9/11.

I know a girls hubby was one of the boys that was molested by a priest.

I feel strongly that Andrea Yates killed her kids "in the name of god"

I feel strongly that our president has done a LOT for theist, and VERY LITTLE for non-theist.

I'm gonna go do something about this, and it may be as simple as filing court papers fighting no tax laws for churches. I don't know but I will do something over the next several years.

What if I got them to take "In god we trust" off our money. Will you be happy or mad?

Starboy

wilderness, communism in Cuba has not been tossed out either, but there is hope. And even a medication no more effective than placebo has some effectiveness, but it is not because of any active ingredient.

Consider this possibility. That Christianity although no better than placebo is clogging up the works so to speak. It is making it impossible for mankind to find an ethos that works better than placebo. It is also contributing to an overall irrationality that pervades our society.

I judge it to be doing poorly because as far as I can tell, Christians do not behave any better than non-Christians. For the vast majority of Christians it doesn't really inform them on how to make the world a better place. If you took a medication and it worked the same as if you didn't take it at all, then I suspect that most would conclude the medication didn't work.

Starboy

Starboy

{Oops, somehow I double posted.}

Hugo Holbling

Yes, i DID see what you posted, but you're still making no sense. Your President's rhetoric doesn't revoke your citizenship; neither do the actions of a minority justify your semantic confusion. Why do you persist in the (barely) implicit assertion that all theists are hoping you burn in hell and are out to get you? There are plenty of decent people that would help you strengthen the barriers between State and religion, but your persistent mischaracterizations will drive most of them away. How have you failed to notice those members of these fora, like Helen, Gemma and Amie, who tirelessly wish us all well? Perhaps you'll post a link to where seebs said you were "satanic"?

Over in Europe we now have a Charter of Fundamental Rights which guarantees religious freedom. It doesn't prevent discrimination from happening, but it makes it illegal and infractions of the Charter subject to law. Why don't you put your energy into something like this for the US if you don't consider the current Constitution sufficient, instead of wasting it here, arguing with those who would probably help you?

wildernesse

You didn't look positively upon that example? Here's your post:

tdekesyer:
(emphasis mine)

You go on to say that this kind of anger/hate is how you feel toward religion. Are you really surprised that I'm uneasy about you?

--tibac