David Mathews

Hello Theli,

David: I classify as a nonbeliever all people outside the faith and religion which canonizes the text. A Christian is a nonbeliever when reading the Qur'an, just as a Muslim is a nonbeliever when reading the New Testament. Both are nonbelievers when reading the Tao Te Ching, just as a Taoist is a nonbeliever when reading the inspired scriptures of the monotheistic faiths.

The nonbeliever is an outsider, a person divorced from the intellectual and emotional context of the religion which values the sacred text.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Hello excreationist,

David: I suppose that the talking snake is an externalized allegory of the mind's inclination to desire evil and challenge rules.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Hello Helen,

My favorite books of the Bible are Job, Ecclesiastes and John. What are your favorite books of the Bible?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Hello Rainbow Walking,

I enjoyed this poem very much.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

lpetrich

Cursing a certain fig tree does not give me much respect for him; I find that an appallingly immature act.

So if you disbelieve in the works of Homer and Hesiod, you disqualify yourself as an objective evaluator of whether the Olympian Gods exist?

LOL. That's absolute, total idiocy. Zeus may have been the Ruler of the Universe, but he was neither omnipotent, omniscient, nor eternal. And Hinduism has tended to teach that the supreme deity is a pantheistic world-soul.

Only one thing: the Stoics and Spinoza had supported pantheism.

Only thing they are doing is recognizing the shared features of those experiences, which are most likely some brain-architecture quirk. Hindu, Buddhist, and Taoist mystics don't come up with anything like the Christian God. Ask Richard Carrier about his Taoist phase some time and he'll tell you. And Christian and Muslim mystics have sometimes been considered heretics by the more orthodox members of their religions.

Stupid pseudo-etymology; it means belief in no gods at all.

David Mathews, don't make me laugh. Go into a fundamentalist church. Next, go into a New Age seminar. Are their beliefs and practices 90% identical???

But look at what happens when people try to cure disease or protect themselves from lightning or predict the weather. One does not see much belief in the demonic-possession theory of disease these days. Or the belief that lightning strikes are caused by gods or devils. Or the belief that bad weather is caused by sorcery.

That may well be the case, but so what? David Mathews, I'm sure that you claim to know much more about the Bible than the mass of humanity, so do you therefore forfeit the right to complain about anyone else's claims of superior knowledge?

Which prove absolutely nothing.

David Mathews, don't make me laugh. They are all different Gods, with different attributes. Did Zeus or Odin or Amon-Ra claim to have created the Universe? Seriously.

You haven't read my comments very carefully. I consider what you consider "God" to be 1. pure fiction and 2. unworthy of worship. Which is what I consider Zeus and Odin and so forth.

That's news to me.

There are alternate possibilities, such as one's two human parents being the cause of one's existence.

Why does everything have to be a purpose? You can always ask your parents why they decided to bring you into existence. As to the human race as a whole, it either has as much overall purpose as (say) a leaf being blown in the wind, or else was the result of whimsical genetic engineers from another planet, or even might have been the result of time travelers from the future wanting to guarantee that they would exist.

"Imaginary numbers" are as "real" as any other kind of numbers; their name comes from some early-modern mathematicians not appreciating that, as has the name "negative numbers".

But that "God" of yours hasn't done anything really serious either, if there is such a thing in the first place.

I mean by that something REALLY serious like only creating and populating "Heaven".

[ July 14, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]</p>

Ryanfire

I keep the explanation for my existence open to any possibility.

Unfortunately theism has taken this unknown, the creation process, and used it to its advantage. I think it's downright evil to abuse the weak, and dislike the strong.

The Dark Ages of religion will be brought into the Light of Truth. I can promise you that David.

Okay. Now what happens to your soul when it's with god? What happens to your soul when it is seperated from god?

In Death, we expect to find answers
In Life, we expect to find answers

Why must we always choose death David?

Lets assume man has defeated death in every way.
Would you fear eternal life?

I don't see the difference if we as "souls" exist eternally in human form, or spritual form. The point being we are still souls, regardless of the form it takes. So I hope religion and theism can stay out of the way if I choose to live eternally as a human. God would still exist in both scenerios David. I hope you realize this.

I'm not sure why humans or myself exist. Now it's your turn. Why does god exist?

It must suck being a soul trapped in a human body eh David? I guess god should come save you from your existence. I don't know how you could be saved when you don't appreciate what you have been given. You must find love and trust within yourself David, I think you have lost them in all your attempts to find answers. Are you willing to go on a journey for truth David? Or does it matter to you anymore?

And what attributes do spirtual senses have?

Perception is our tool in reality, and for that matter existence. We only know we exist because of what is around us. If there is nothing around you, you wouldn't be aware of your existence.

And those are?... hahaha exactly that, IMAGINARY Anything can happen then
5 + 10 = 40000000
1 - 2 = 4
10 x 1000000 = 3
yeeehaww!

I done reckon my momma sayed I was gud at mafh.

I place faith within humanity and myself David. I don't condemn humans for doing what they think is right in order to find their place here on earth.
I just think we don't need to hurt each other to obtain what we want from life. We have solved problems in life, that's why we have science, medicine, love, hate, education.. evolution They have all progressed, religion hasn't done shit Wealth isn't the problem, it's greed.
Hence the reason you send your money to god to build churches. Religion is the wealthiest organization in the world. Want the proof of greed? There it is friend.

Humans just lack understanding. They are beautiful beings nonetheless

HelenM

Hi David

I'm a bit confused why you're asking...I remember when you said you wouldn't answer me because my comments weren't relevant.

Is this relevant?

But, I'm not going to not answer just because I don't see why you asked or exactly how it's relevant...

Actually I don't think of myself as having 'favorite' books of the Bible. When I read/think of a specific book of the Bible I think "I like this one because..." - rather than having favorites that are always favorites.

I appreciate you sharing with me which your favorite books are; although it would be more interesting if you told me why they are your favorites

There are many things I like in John's gospel, in Job and in Ecclesiastes; but there are also many things I like in the other books of the Bible. I respect that they are your favorites and I would enjoy hearing why if you'd care to elaborate.

On the other hand, this probably has little to do with the Existence of God...

But maybe that's true of other things on this thread also.

It was nice of you to ask, though

love
Helen

excreationist

David Mathews:
...I suppose that the talking snake is an externalized allegory of the mind's inclination to desire evil and challenge rules...
Are you saying that that incident didn't literally happen? The stories in Genesis seem to flow on from one another - how do you know which stories really happened and which didn't? Also, do you think that the authors of the Bible intended the ages of people in the Bible to be taken literally? (see <a href="http://members.ozemail.com.au/~wenke/bible/genealogies.htm" target="_blank">Bible genealogies</a>)

wordsmyth

Would you still be a xian if the life of Jesus as portrayed in the bible made no mention of any supernatural event connected with him? Would you still make a claim to xianity based on the message of Jesus alone and not based on your belief in his alleged divinity and/or supernatural ability?

Have believers not invested some meaning in their belief? A great many unbelievers began as believers who reached a point when they could no longer reconcile the contradictions, discrepancies, and absurdities to perpetuate their belief.

Xian apologetics is ample evidence that believers are incapable of being objective because it relies heavily on “might have been” and “possibly”.

Yes, in many ways I do. Though it is a far more subtle persecution than the violent and bloody inquisitions of olde, it exists none-the-less. History teaches quite well how the popular majority ostracizes minorities. I’ve personally been attacked both verbally and physically for my unbelief. Quite recently I lost some business based solely on my unbelief and not due in any way to an inability to perform the task. Generally, I try to keep my unbelief a private matter, but I’m not willing to lie should I be questioned concerning my beliefs.

This statement is the pinnacle of ignorance and I find the accusation highly offensive.

My unbelief is not in any way based upon a desire to set myself apart from “mainstream” society to achieve a feeling of uniqueness.

You claimed in another thread that you came to this board to learn about atheists/agnostics, but after reading this statement it is apparent that you have already formed an opinion about them. As long as ignorance dictates your beliefs, you will never obtain an intelligent understanding of the world around you or the people who inhabit it.

Yes and no. While on the surface the claim is to the same God; judaism, xianity, islam each give different attributes to this God which is the point you are supposed to be defending. For instance, xianity alone makes the claim of the Trinity, which is not accepted by either Judaism or Islam. This is an important attribute that is not shared among the three.

What specific attributes are common between the deities of the polytheistic and monotheistic religions? If only the transcendental qualities are comparable, but not any specific attributes, then I would say your argument is seriously flawed, as each deity possesses many more attributes than just the transcendental qualities you are referring to.

All your basically saying here is a God is a God. However, this does not in any way demonstrate that the attributes of the xian deity are similar to the attributes of all deities.

This does not in any way demonstrate that the attributes of the xian deity are similar to the attributes of all deities.

I did not claim there were more dissimilarities than similarities between xian denominations. You misread my post. Look at it again. My claim was that there were more dissimilarities than similarities between RELIGIONS.

Though I did state there were dissimilarities between denominations, I did not assert that there were MORE dissimilarities than similarities.

I did not claim that ALL belief in the supernatural has died out; in fact I stated just the opposite. However, it is apparent that most claims of supernatural causes for events are no longer accepted when natural explanations have been discovered. For example, the majority of people now accept mental illness as a fact rather than claiming a person is possessed by devils.

This is another unsupported and offensive accusation that you have leveled against me. I never made the claim that I am in any way better than the mass of humanity. If you are unable to refrain from these attacks of my character without any supporting evidence, then I will not be able to continue this discourse with you as it will be evident you are not interested in intelligent conversation.

If however, you are genuinely here to learn about the beliefs/opinions/convictions of others, and myself, then I invite you to examine them as closely as you wish and point out any areas in which you feel I have reached an irrational or unreasonable conclusion. I do not hide behind the veil of vagueness and will be as specific in my explanations as you wish.

You did not address my point. How are we to discern fact from fiction without any substantial evidence to support claims of the supernatural?

If we are to believe every supernatural claim based solely on the word of others and without any supporting evidence, then we are forced to believe every alleged siting of Elvis, every claim of ghosts, every supernatural claim in general. What a poor people we would be if nobody ever sought the truth.

Fair enough. However, there also exists no substantial evidence for claims of the supernatural outside the bible either or other religious texts.

People are not born believers, however. In general their family and the society in which they live indoctrinate them into belief. It seems strange that xians would spend so much time evangelizing the bible to people in third world countries when the bible was written only for those who already believe.

Here again you provide another wild accusation against me and all atheists in general. You have made it abundantly clear that you are not in fact here to learn anything about the beliefs/non-beliefs of atheists/agnostics as you have already adopted the biased and stereotypically ignorant mindset of most xians regarding atheists/agnostics.

Saying that I “prefer” to live in a universe without God is as ignorant as stating that I “prefer” to live in a universe without invisible pink unicorns. It just so happens that I would prefer to live in a universe where invisible pink unicorns existed and flourished. My preferences in this matter are quite irrelevant to the existence or non-existence of these creatures. Additionally, I would prefer to live in a universe in which in-laws did not exist, but again my preferences are irrelevant as there is ample evidence that they do in fact exist.

Lack of any substantial evidence to validate the existence of God(s) or the supernatural is the foundation of my lack of belief in both. It is not however, the only reason for why I do not believe.

[edited for grammar]

[ July 14, 2002: Message edited by: wordsmyth ]</p>

David Mathews

Hello lpetrich,

David: I don't consider the act immature. I suppose that the act had symbolic meaning to the disciples and that is the reason why they preserved its memory in the gospels.

David: I don't believe in the Olympian gods. Christians were regarded as atheists by the Roman pagans for good reason.

When I read the writings of the poets Homer and Hesiod, I do not read those texts in the same manner as the Greek pagans read them. That is why the pagans most certainly would not want to rely upon myself as a judge of the merits of their religous texts.

David: I think it would serve your cause to become acquainted with Greek theology. The following quote is from Aristotle, On the Universe:

You really should read the whole passage. Aristotle is saying the very things which you are denying. Aristotle's God has a whole lot in common with the Supreme Deity of monotheism. Christians have recognized the affinities between Aristotle's concept of God and the monotheistic God for almost two thousand years.

Regarding the Hindu concept of a Supreme Deity. The Bhagavad Gita describes this God in the following manner:

You laugh at this concept but that is only because you have not investigated Greek religion and Hinduism. The concept of a Supreme deity was not lacking in either.

David: Yes.

David: There are differences but there are also similarities. If you read the writings of the mystics you will find that they readily transform their metaphysical terminology between their native religion and other religions. Mystics cross these religious boundaries and that is why the orthodox considers them mystics.

David: That is the point. Are you rejecting one concept, god(s), or are you rejected two concepts, God and the god(s); or are you rejecting three concepts, monotheism, polytheism, pantheism?

David: The question was about the denominations. The New Age seminar is a different religion altogether and therefore will be substantially different from the denominations.

David: That is true.

David; I may have more knowledge about the Bible than the mass of humanity but I do not presume that this makes my opinions/beliefs/convictions infallible and correct.

David: This is a good question indeed. Examine these religions and tell me what you find out about their doctrine of creation.

David: I hope so.

David: I am somewhat confused about what you are saying above. Imaginary numbers are real? I don't know what you mean.

Sincerely,

David Mathews