WJ

Odemus!

I've come to the overwelming conclusion that there are many atheists who have an axe to grind. You needn't go any further, it's a psychological thing. What you said in your first few posts, I can see has not been an adequately addressed or responded to.

As for me personally, and from a selfish perspective, I am much happier being a Christian than when I wasn't. Being on this board has been a blessing to me because I can certainly see that I've made the right choice. I hope my atheist friends don't take that the wrong way either as I've never marketed God.

I see a bitterness towards religion and to some degree rightfully so. Unfortunately, man has created his sense of religious-ness and has, in the process, given God a bad name. On the other hand, I don't know of any thing in this world that represents perfection...

I still believe what you said earlier is right on the mark. It is basically nonsensical for an atheist to worry so much about the (non)existence of God.

I share your view: why all the fuss?

Walrus

excreationist

Why do you care so passionately about your disbelief?
Well people need hobbies you know... I've got so much time to kill and coming here and expressing myself has become a habit...

It seems to me that if one is going to live life absent from a belief in God, one wouldn't pay much attention to the the fact that one was doing so.
Well that's what a lot of atheists do but since I was a creationist I have had a habit of discussing my beliefs with others.

I mean, if all there is to life is what we can see and touch and measure, then what does this debate matter?
I am in charge of how I spend my time so I can have anti-Christian discussions if I feel like it.

You can't possibly be engaging theists because you believe atheism will make the world a better place, because if life doesn't have a higher purpose, 'better' doesn't exist either.
Pleasure and pain exist. There are things that people feel compelled to seek and things that they feel compelled to avoid. And some things can be more desirable (associated with more pleasure and/or less pain) that other things - from a person's *point of view*. In the Bible where God says that the creation is good - that's just from his point of view. So it makes sense to say that the world could be improved - from a particular person's point of view (such as my own). When you're talking about improvements you need to think about what you value. For Christians, the most important thing is whatever God wants. (e.g. in the O.T. God wanted a man who gathered sticks on the Sabbath to be killed, etc, so that was "perfectly good") For me, I think I value things like equality, freedom, science, the long-term well-being of people and the planet, etc. I especially value my family and friends and myself. Things that go in that direction are an improvement - from my point of view.

If you are right and God doesn't exist, that is if you die and simply cease to be, the only true conclusion about life is that it is meaningless.You might argue that your philosophy allows for life to hold value but in the final analysis you will be dead and unable to care regardless, and after your death the world will go on as if you were never here to begin with.
Yes, but while I'm alive I can stand up for what I believe in and do what I think I should do (or feel like doing - e.g. posting on messageboards). Do you suggest that I give up eating and drinking since all that effort is ultimately meaningless?

How is it that your take on the universe can hold any more value than mine?
Our votes would be equal in a democracy. We'd just vote to see who gets to have their way. Or we could fight to the death over it. Each of us would still hold their original viewpoint though. Through discussion perhaps our viewpoints can change though.

If you're right, your epitaph will congratulate you for not having been superstitious and mine will note that I lead a life devoted to the unverifiable.

So my question is, what's the point?
Well you have your reasons for doing things and I have mine. Christians are supposed to spread the word but no-one is telling me to do this. This is my own choice. If you really want to know, I guess I just enjoy these discussions a lot of the time. This is really a leisure activity for me. Leisure activities don't need a "point" - I guess the "point" is to stimulate my brain and interact with people and learn some things. All of those things give me some pleasure, so I guess I'm just seeking some pleasure. Christians would ultimately be seeking neverending pleasure and perhaps be trying to avoid neverending pain... with Christians it's the same kind of thing - just more dramatic. And part of what they have to do is acknowledge there total inferiority to the supreme being. Hmmm... I wonder why I'm still writing stuff in this post... what was the point of me writing this post? I guess I felt that I had something to say and now I've said it. I've used up a few more minutes of my youth but I've wasted so much time on the internet that it doesn't seem to make any difference. Writing this post has made me stay awake longer - and for what purpose? I mightn't have helped anyone. I guess I just did it for myself, on a whim. That's what most of my posts here are like. It's not like I've made a big commitment here and signed up to be a moderator or anything. But if I did do that there would still be a point to it - being a moderator here could also be for my own enjoyment or at least to get a feeling of satisfaction. Maybe that's part of the reason I post here - just to get a sense of satisfaction. Even though I believe that I'll stop existing in a few decades it doesn't mean that I must use my time wisely and get out and live life to the fullest. I can waste my time here if I want. I guess posting here is less of a waste of time than me playing old video games but it might still be seen by many as a big waste of time. So what was the point of me writing that extra part at the end of this post? Well I guess it was unnecessary, but I did it anyway. I think I just want to make this post feel complete somehow... well I'll just end it here.

Goliath

Odemus,

I do not have a disbelief. I have a lack of belief. Apparently, you've learned absolutely NOTHING from our discussion on belief vs. lack of belief. How sad.

Many atheists would, indeed, not care so much about their lack of belief were it not for xians trying to assimilate the planet into their religion.

Strawman. Atheism makes no such claim. In fact, atheism involves no claims whatsoever: it is nothing more than a lack of belief that any gods exist.

Unsupported assertion.

Three things:

1. What does "higher" mean when you mention a "higher purpose?"

2. Why must life have a "higher" purpose?

3. Even if you address 1. and 2., your assertion above is an unproven one.

Strawman, yet again. I make no such claim.

Again, I have never made this claim. Keep stuffing that strawman, theist! It would be much easier than actually *engaging atheists* with relevant arguments, now wouldn't it?

I do not believe that life has some grandiose purpose, and I give plenty of meaning to my life. You are therefore demonstrably wrong.

Irrelevant. I can value things now.

Again, irrelevant.

Ah, still stuffing that strawman, I see.

The reasons for atheists engaging in theists on debates are probably about as varied as atheists themselves are.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Odemus

You are basically defining meaning as cause and effect.

cause:It is dawn
effect:The temperature is rising

cause:I desire to spend the rest of my life with you in cohabitation, and for you to be the bearer of my offspring because our union will produce a successfully adapting child
effect:I love you

cause:the sun just exploded
effect:bye

Odemus

Assuming your atheism is a more correct approach to life, how does it hold more value or meaning than mine?

Autonemesis

And I am agreeing with you. Thing is, without any evidence or reason to believe that God exists to establish that standard, you are in the same boat. God is the made-up basis of your meaning. Ultimately, your ideas about God are for squat if he doesn't exist.

Identifying or imagining a need for a universal standard does not make the standard-provider pop into existence. You are not arguing for the existence of God, you are arguing for the impossibility of absolutely certain knowledge. And I agree with that. We are on our own, so now what? Imagining that we are not alone does not seem to offer any advantage. Why is facing that so unpalatable to you?

Autonemesis

It holds as much value and meaning as you bring to it. How much value and meaning are you bringing with you? Or do you just take, take, take?

(prediction: Odemus asks me what that means)

Odemus

Anyone who feels inclined to respond.


Why are you passionate enough about your athiesm to try and persuade others to think as you?



How does it matter what anyone believes about you?How does it matter what anyone believes period?


If it's so tiring why do you bother?Also, what's so difficult to understand about lacking a belief in God?I would think that's the easiest thing in the world to believe.

Seeing a reason to live does not denote meaning.As one who believes that God does not exist, you should be viewing everything you ever do as the same biological imperative that drives the rest of the animal kingdom.


Or why not waste it on wishful thinking? How does realism hold any more value than wishful thinking?Neither philosophy will help you escape your impending demise.

Do you not also think this way?Do you not vote?Do you not work?Do you not do your best to treat others in the way you feel you should be treated?Aren't all of your actions motivated by a desire to make things 'better'?


Holy simply means set apart or devoted to the work of a diety.

Or maybe I feel my opinion is acknowledgement of the way things really are.Why should you care?


Why should you even have an opinion about what I should be asking myself?How does it concern you?
What does 'waste' mean?How can you determine that your life is better spent if we both end up in the same place?can you substantiate or verify in any capacity that your life held a greter sense of happiness or well being than mine?Even if you could, what does it matter?

phlebas

Odemus,

Why are you so afraid of death?

Autonemesis

Says who? I don't see things that way. Are you laboring under the delusion that natural selection is an ethical philosophy? Cluephone, ring, ring: evolution is not a theory of morality or ethics.

Just because you believe there is a need for an absolute external standard, does not mean that any atheist also feels the need to adopt an absolute external standard. And if an atheist did feel the need, who is to say that he will adopt evolution as his moral basis? You? That's a bit presumptuous of you, don't you think?

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]</p>