simian

GTX,

I am assuming your opposition to evolutionary science is based on your reading of the bible. I brought up the comparison with "Round Earthism" because it too is directly contradictory to a literal reading of the bible. It is, however, a fact the vast majority of Christians will ignore.

A verse that comes to mind is:
Matthew 4:8 "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;" him referring to Jesus.

The only way I can see a necessity of going to the top of a high mountain to see "all the kingdoms of the world" would be if the earth is flat and you can see all the way to the edge. There are also numerous old testament verses.

The vast majority of creationsists I have met are able to reconcile their reading of the bible with their knowledge of a spherical earth. They can also accept 2 contradictory complete account of the creation of the earth (Genesis 1 and Genesis 2:4b onward) as fact, and are probably not even aware of the additional fragments of 18 additional creation stories in the bible. The primary one I am aware of the Psalm where Wisdom builds the world.

So, again I will state that your asking what "Evolutionists" believe is as nonsensical as asking what "Round Earthists" believe.

Please note that this is not an attack on Christianity in general. In fact, one of my strongest allies in fighting is a Lutheran who studied theology and now teaches at a university, and Christians tend to be strong (if mostly quiet in public) allies on many of the issues I take up. He knows where the stories in the bible come from (hint: god did not speak the bible as it is, in his view), why there is a wet land creation story and a dry land creation story, knows where to locate the fragments of other creation stories in the bible. He has been referred to a "the anti-christ" locally because he teaches about the bible as a document not as the "word of god", and a project he frequently assigns is having students produce a timeline of the ressurection and who was where (hint: the stories don't match up). His views reflect the vast majority of Christianity. Unfortunately YECs get nearly all the press.

Finally on the comparisons of the scientific studies of evolution and gravity (physicists and biologists please correct any errors I make here):

Evolution: basic component has been identified (DNA), how the basic component can change (radiation, mutagenic chemicals, transcription errors, and others), effects of these changes (changes in the proteins made if it is in a coding section of DNA), how these changes are passed on to the next generation. This information has been used to produce valid medical treatments, plant breeding techniques, and other useful applications.

Gravity: no basic component identified (is it a wave, a field, or something else), so the method of interaction is unknown, about all that is known is that gravity is directly proportional to mass and inversely proportional to distance squared, and of course that "things fall toward each other." Sure, there have been advances made: "without air friction, a feather and a hammer dropped from the same height fall at the same speed." But, we still can't generate gravity without mass (matter, not the church service ).

As I see it, the scientific study of evolution has yielded more direct advances for society than the scientific study of gravity. Please note I am not saying the scientific study of gravity has not yielded anything, just that the study of evolution seems to yield more direct results for society.

Simian

Badfish

This verse doesn't imply flat earth, I think this is a parable. Even if the Earth were flat or thought to have been flat, one could not see ALL the kingdoms, and maybe the all the Kingdoms that were big enough to be called Kingdoms were visible from the mountain, I don't know.

And I already said I am not closed to evolution, I KNOW evolution is taking place as we speak, my questions are mostly as to what extent evolution HAS taken place. This is where my skepticism gets me, I just have a hard time being Christian and believing we evolved from a group of or a couple of cells, micro organisms, whatever.

I have not discounted anything yet, I have not the knowledge to discount anything, just searching and learning.

GeoTheo

Do a search in Google on "Finding Darwin's God" it will take you to Kenneth Miller's website where you can read a chapter of the book that was very enlightening to me as a Christian.
Also, no need to believe that the temptation of Christ was parabolic. It was just presented originally to people with less knowledge of Science then We have.

Bubba

Geo-

Finding Darwin's God was helpful to me also.

I think the best thing for GTX would be to go to the library and find a good readable 8th-9th grade Biology textbook that covered evolution in a far way and do some reading.

Also, If he could meet someone who understood evolution some of the ideas behind it might come to life. It is sometimes easier in a face to face encounter to sort out your initial thouhgts over a good Pizza and a few beers. I know that it helped me.

Bubba

wdog

Interesting thread there starboy, i enjoyed it and i pretty much agree.

Starboy

Thanks Optics Guy.

Bubba

Why is it when creationism has less "evidence" (word used losely) all of the time and evolution has more evidence all of the time that they still try to support creationism with science??

Good link Starboy.

Bubba

Asha'man

I'm flattered. Please use as much as you want. Attribution to "Asha'man" for now, for career safety.

Starboy

Hey Bubba,

Thank you for your kind comment. I like your name. You wouldn't happen to be Bill Clinton? No insult or complement intended.

To answer your question IMHO they do it for three reasons:

1. It's a tactic: They are not scientists, they are Christians and they think they are doing their Christian duty by battling with us heathens. They are pulling the oldest Christian trick of proselytizing in the book, they learned this trick from the Romans and they learned it well. They did it to the Irish, they did to the Germanic tribes, and they did it to the South American Indians. What they do is look for something in the belief systems of those they would absorb and incorporate it into Christianity, that is where many religious holidays and practices came from, such as Christmas and Easter. However, they have a really big problem with science. You see if all you know how to use is a hammer then everything looks like a nail. Christians only really understand religion, so they see atheism and science as just another religion, thus they are falling back on what for them is the tried and true. It will not work for the simplest of reasons, because science is not religion. There has never been a human endeavor like science in the history of the world. They don’t understand this because for the last four hundred years, instead of trying to understand what science is all about all they have been doing is fighting it and loosing. Just go to any of the many Christian Creationism sites and read it carefully. It’s not science, its religion!

2.Fear of science:Science really is a threat to Christianity and all belief systems that require the supernatural to happen everyday and to everyone. The reason for this is because science has become so successful and so indispensable to modern life that no political leader in their right mind would say, ok, stop the science, we will teach and practice it no longer. It is also a threat because science explains the everyday, the past and future the near and the far and it does it maybe not perfectly, but much better then anything else that has gone before, and yet it does it all without the supernatural, in fact to science the supernatural is irrelevant!

3.They are morons:In the United States the number of unbelievers is growing more rapidly than any other religion. IMHO this is due in part because so many religious leaders are so badly educated and understand science so poorly that their pathetic attempts to combat it lack any honesty, sincerity or integrity. People see through this and it becomes a disconfirming event and thus grows the number of unbelievers in this country. If I didn’t know better, I would think that the creationist movement was really a plot by atheist to undermine Christianity! Christian leaders really are morons!

Sorry about the length, but those are some of my thoughts on the subject.

Starboy

[ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

Major Billy

No. Evolution is a fact, observed in nature and documented in the fossil record. 'Natural Selection" is a theory that Charles Darwin came up with to explain the fact of evolution he observed on his travels to South America and other places.