K

Albert Cipriani:

If I seem like I'm trying to anger you, it is only because I am trying to goad you into backing up your assertions with reason or evidence. You asserted that Jobar would make a lousy father. That's a harsh accusation and one that I wasn't going to let stand without something to back it up.

Maybe you could clarify exactly what you mean by justice here. Remember, the traditional Catholic God's type of justice is delivered when there is no hope of teaching and developing. It is extreme (infinite punishement for a finite crime) and it is final.

Non-abusive authority doesn't bother me. My parents had no revulsion to punishment. I have no problem punishing my children. However, I have never punished them as an act of vengeance or justice. It has always been as a means of helping to mold their characters.

This is a stark contrast to the way the traditional Catholic God uses punishment. The traditional Catholic God seems to use punishment when there is no possible teaching to be done. It is punishment simply for the sake of punishment - or as you said, sadism.

You seem to no longer be endorsing the traditional Catholic teachings about divine justice and Hell. You instead seem to have replaced it with a newer, touch-feely, Hell-is-separation-from-God type of justice. Is this true?

7thangel

Isn't that what's grace all about?

God, having the ultimate power, does not have to be just nor benevolent. Which is how Chriastans describe God as author of everything.

Jobar

Albert, you can relax, as I am in fact not a dad. (I am, however, a much-loved uncle, and am quite good at both love and justice on a human scale.)

But that's not what we are talking about, now is it? We are considering perfection, not fallibility. God, if he is just, is not all-loving; if he is all-loving, he need not be just, as his power is such that he could instill in each of his creations the highest moral principles. That's what we humans would do for *our* children if we were able, not so?

K said:
Remember that justice, as far a God is concerned, has nothing to do with teaching. God's justice is simply a scorched earth form of retribution. It's an eternal punishment for a momentary transgression - punishing for the sake of punishment.

That's precisely the thing I want to discuss, here- why should God need to be just? I note that Albert and 7th both have their own interpretation of how God's love and justice are reconciled; another proof of my thesis that no two believers believe in precisely the same God. I also note that both of you seem very far from the standard or average conception of God. 7th says God, having the ultimate power, does not have to be just nor benevolent; Christians, by and large, consider omnibenevolence a necessary property of God. Albert seems to believe that the damned *choose* to be damned; I am curious as to whether you think that Hell is actually eternal, if you claim that it is some sort of learning experience. (An aside, Albert- have you read Anne Rice's Memnoch the Devil? If you have not, I think you should; I think you would enjoy Rice's concept of Satan.)

Darth Dane

Justice, the word is an offshot of judging right?

Lets see what Jesus said: "Judge not lest thee be judged"

If you want justice, or someone to judge for you, you will be judged.

The one who Loves without judgement will not be judged.

Is Love more coveted than justice?

Which attribute would you have thrust upon yourself: Love or judgement?


...do unto others.... <---- NB this was not meant as preaching, but a funny comment. With the eye locked on "preachers" I must assume a safe position, namely laughter and jokes





DD - Love Spliff

rainbow walking

Rw: Hi Jobar,
Just a few comments, if I may…


Jobar: This thread is an offshoot of the 'Is God Love?' thread.

I know many of the believers here say that God's love is tempered by his justice, and his justice is tempered by his love. I think that we have here a self-contradiction and the attempt to hide it.

Love and justice are mutually exclusive. If we love someone, we do not want justice for them; it is impossible to love someone who we think requires justice.

Rw: I think you may be laboring under a misapprehension of the concept of justice, my friend. Justice works both ways, i.e., for what we deem as good as well as what we deem as evil.
For instance, as an uncle, I’m sure you love your nieces and nephews. Now how would you translate that love into justice if one of them did something to benefit all of humanity and instead of being honored and rewarded they were ostracized and ignored? Your love for them and sense of justice would evoke an immediate condemnation of this, wouldn’t it? You would prefer humanity give them credit where credit is due…yes? Hence you would desire justice be done in this case.

I would venture a guess that you would desire justice be done even if the case didn't involve someone you know and love personally. You would, no doubt, be motivated by a sense of fairness...yes?

Likewise, what if one of your nephews developed a bad habit of stealing? Wouldn’t your love for him evoke a sincere desire that he not continue in this habit? Hence you would be motivated to see justice enacted to teach him the value of honesty…yes?

Jobar: Justice is always involved with crime and suffering- sin and evil in the theistic parlance. Justice may inspire good feelings- we all say we want justice done. But if it is done *to* us, we do not feel it as just (and certainly not good) unless we are convinced of the wrongness of our own actions; that is, unless we truly repent. Repentance is supposedly the goal of human justice, but in fact the punishment aspect predominates; prisons, police, courts, all see 'justice' as the incarceration or execution of criminals, not heart-felt repentance by criminals.

Rw: There is a reason for this. Punishment is designed to send a message to the community of would be criminals. It boils down to the old eye-for-an-eye attribute of justice. The only definitive way to teach normative values is via fear. The fear of losing something valuable in return for doing something that causes a loss valuable to someone else. In most cases, in our American society, the most valuable possession one can lose, outside of his life, is his freedom. We tend to focus our criticisms of justice on individual cases while ignoring the original purpose for all laws is to regulate for the benefit of the community as a whole.

Also, wouldn't your love for your relatives evoke a desire for justice against someone who did them bodily harm?

Jobar: If God is loving, as a being of ultimate power he does not need to be just.

Rw: This would be true if we were all gods on equal standing to him, (assuming such a being exists).

Jobar: And if he is just, then he cannot always love the creatures upon whom he visits justice.

Rw: It does not follow that such a being doesn’t love those who are worthy of punishment. As has already been said, we punish our children in order to improve their behavior and address their will to do right. We do this because we love them and know that if we don’t, the community has, in place, all the tools necessary to get the job done in a much harsher environment. In the case of a god and the Christian version, that harsher environment is hell. But if this being also has an eye on historical man’s development he cannot suspend justice on this level without some evidence of repentance. There are other concepts that come into play here also, concepts like mercy and forgiveness. Who do you think deserves the more severe punishment:

A. The man who breaks into your home, steals your family heirlooms, pawns them for money and buys drugs to satisfy his habit or…?

B. The man who breaks into your home, steals your family heirlooms, realizes he’s done wrong, returns your possessions, offers to repair any damage incurred during the break-in, and checks himself into a drug abuse facility for help with his addiction?

How would justice best be served?

Jobar: It's another aspect of the PoE, I think.

Rw: How so?

Albert Cipriani

Dear K,
You ask: Justice is an abstraction derived from an abstraction anchored in Natural Law. That is, our concept of justice derives from our loving empathy for other beings to experience reality. Reality can be defined as the subjective experience of cause and effect.

For example, a small boy pulling the wings off of flies is not exercising justice for his actions belie any loving empathy for the fly’s reality. No cause justifies the effect that the boy works, that is, a wingless fly has no purpose. The fly, therefore, was forced to experience unreality. But if a spider ripped the wings off the fly in the process of eating it, then the spider did not act unjustly, as the effect it worked upon the fly had a cause, the spider’s need to survive.

You’re the one who needs to remember. Remember Purgatory? That is the Catholic, not Protestant, dogma of temporal punishment for our temporal sins. It is not final.

For the last time, Hell is not punishment. It is the final state of a being without God, analogous to our universe’s eventual heat death. It is both physical and spiritual, that is, it consist of objective and subjective components for humans consist of a body and a soul.

You do not control the consequences of your punishment of your children. It is enough that you do your duty by punishing your children. Whether your punishments serve “as a means of helping to mold their characters” is entirely up to them. They are not robots, you know. Punishment is not a kind of programming. Punishment is the clearest demonstration you can provide your children of who you are and what you value. They will, no doubt reject much of both. But it’s your job to at least give them something to reject.

The Catholic Church has always defined the reality of hell as a twofold loss as have I: the poena damni (pain of loss) and the poena sensus (pain of sense). St. Gregory explains the effect of the poena sensus as being the inverse of our present condition, that is, our spirit being subject to matter instead of matter being subject to our spirit, as it is presently. In any case, the necessity of hell’s physical pain derives from the metaphysical reality of us being physical (as well as spiritual) beings, not, as you imagine, as a consequence of God’s vengeance. – Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

K

Albert Cipriani:

Then God clearly is not a source of justice. We see no hint of God's justice in this world. Justice is only served when we are able and willing to bring it about. It sounds like God doesn't control any justice in the next world either - God doesn't punish, there are just some people who have chosen to be separated from God.

How on earth did God become associated with justice when He clearly has nothing to do with the concept?

Tenek

Ah, yes. Justice vs. Love.

Uppercase-J Justice is attributed to God. Lowercase-j justice is attributed to man, and can be tempered by love.

You want an example of absolute Justice? Inspector Javert from Les Misérables. You cannot introduce Love, or even love, into the picture without diminishing Justice. If God is Love, He is not justice, if God is Justice, He is not love. The Christian God seems much more of Justice than Love... rather poor justice at that, given that He only seems to care for 'one crime - one punishment' as opposed to 'one crime - the criminal's punishment'.

Albert Cipriani

Well Tenek and K,
That sews up this thread for me. Stereophonic whining between the two of you without one decibel of argumentation. What a boring duet you make. -- Albert the Traditional Catholic

Tenek

Between the two? It's my first post here. Christ.

I note the apparent insincerity in your post. Something wrong?