Rational BAC

What is J-Thunder and who is Mayhem King?

winstonjen

Have you also considered the possibility of undue influence? Did the fear of eternal torture come into play?

The burden of proof states that the person or organisation making the positive claim bears the burden. Perhaps you should look into this.

EstherRose

There was no undue influence. Before I became a Christian I believed in God, all on my own, but did not believe in hell. Since I didn't believe in hell, there was no eternal torture to be threatened by. I longed for a meaningful relationship with God and after years of searching out the different ways to come to Him, I recognized the truth in the bible. (And I might add felt like an idiot for not realizing it sooner.) I prayed to God, accepted Jesus and found my personal relationship with God.


I offer my opinions, my proof. I have no need to try to force you to accept them. If someone replies with questions or valid comments, I will respond as my time warrants. If you feel I'm not backing up my proof, by all means let me know. The burden of proof stated in your quote above is obvious even to a simple Christian.

Rational BAC

It does seem to me that most of you are holding Magus to a much higher standard for calling himself a Jew than most people would consider doing to the average Christian.

The atheist mindset on this is much like that of a Christian Fundy===You may believe A,B,C and D-------but since you do not believe E-(or you add E on to your belief)-then you are not a REAL Christian and are going to hell.

Do all you atheists agree with me that you are very narrowly defining what is a Jew in much the same way that Fundies very narrowly define what is a Christian? And are you happy with yourselves for doing that?

Kosh

Please note the two excerpts I have isolated here. This is the root of your problem, and that of many Xians. You admit that you're not qualified to do the analysis, then do the analysis, proclaim yourself to know the only *truth*, and then go preach it to the world.

Kinda like my 10 year old trying to teach his understanding of economics.

Rational BAC

Aint elitism wonnerful?

Maybe we should all just restrict this forum's posters (theist and non-theist) to only those who "really know their stuff".

Too bad there would be almost nobody here.

Of course there is always Instant Messaging for those elitists who just want to talk to each other. I recommend that recourse highly.

agnawstick

Weren't the ebionites "christian jews"? They followed the teachings of Christ, but did not believe in his divinity. They didn't believe that he was born of a virgin, but was imbued with "the spirit" of God when he was baptized by John. They believed he was the messiah, but in the sense of a human messenger of God, not God himself.

It actually makes sense in a logical sense. The "Christian version" would be like Martin Luther's followers, who still professed their christianity, although they had disagreements with the main thrust of the church.

The ebionites were believed to be evangelized by James. If they were following the beliefs of James, it makes James and Paul's argument the more potent. Yahshua was a reform rabbi, who was ticked off at the disenfranchisement of the poor, and with those who tried to stay pious before helping others, even though Yahweh clearly commanded it of people. Lessons like the Good Samaritan are examples of rabbinic teaching of what to do when two commands of the Lord conflict. Does honoring the sabbath before helping somebody serve God in this view?

Jesus kept the laws, James kept the laws. The ebionites kept the laws. If "Christ's" Godhead was a later attachment by the Paul crowd, I could very well see him being revered as a Rabbi without being worshipped as God incarnate, and those followers of his were truly "jews for Jesus".

Wayne P

One More Time:

Magus wrote on the other Messianic Jew thread (Messianic Jews - How many):

This is not ambiguous. It is a quite solid statement of his belief. It is also HIS solid statement of the beliefs of Mainstream Jew. Is his claim true? Let's just ask a couple of simple questions.

1. Is the Messiah that Magus WORSHIPS divine?
2. Are manistream Jews waiting for a divine Messiah? (And would they worship the Messiah they are waiting for?)
3. Does Magus have faith in the New Testament?
4. Do Mainstream Jews have faith in the New Testament?
5. Does Magus believe his salvation is through Jesus Christ?
6. Do Mainstream Jews believe that their salvation is through Jesus Christ?

So we see that not only is Magus misrepresenting his position, but he is also misrepresenting the position of Mainstream Jews.

Based on Magus' statement above a Jew could call himself a Christian and he would be right, because the only difference between him and Magus is that Magus is not waiting for his Messiah.

So, I guess, that according to some Christians here it is ok to call yourself whatever you want, even if it 's untrue. And it is also ok to lie about other people's beliefs, just to make your point.

Wayne P

One More Time:

Magus wrote on the other Messianic Jew thread (Messianic Jews - How many):

This is not ambiguous. It is a quite solid statement of his belief. It is also HIS solid statement of the beliefs of Mainstream Jew. Is his claim true? Let's just ask a couple of simple questions.

1. Is the Messiah that Magus WORSHIPS divine?
2. Are manistream Jews waiting for a divine Messiah? (And would they worship the Messiah they are waiting for?)
3. Does Magus have faith in the New Testament?
4. Do Mainstream Jews have faith in the New Testament?
5. Does Magus believe his salvation is through Jesus Christ?
6. Do Mainstream Jews believe that their salvation is through Jesus Christ?

So we see that not only is Magus misrepresenting his position, but he is also misrepresenting the position of Mainstream Jews.

Based on Magus' statement above a Jew could call himself a Christian and he would be right, because the only difference between him and Magus is that Magus is not waiting for his Messiah.

So, I guess, that according to some Christians here it is ok to call yourself whatever you want, even if it 's untrue. And it is also ok to lie about other people's beliefs, just to make your point.

Biff the unclean

Aint elitism wonnerful?

Maybe we should all just restrict this forum's posters (theist and non-theist) to only those who "really know their stuff".

I don't see how Kosh could have been any plainer. EstherRose declared that she didn't know something only two beats before she claimed to know it. It's a standard Theist ruse. It usually starts out with the term "the finite human mind cannot..." Then immediately makes some proclamation about God. Apparently the listener is not supposed to realize that the Theist has as finite a human mind as they do.
I take this as the Theists way of announcing that they intend to stop telling the truth at this point. Their finite human minds are just fine. The logic that they use to get through the day works just swell. This same logic works fine on the subject of god too. Only the answer that is logically reached is "this story is a fake."
At this point the Theist makes an announcement…like the one EstherRose made…that in effect says that for this single subject they are going to suspend the logic they use for every other aspect of their lives and say what they want to hear irregardless of what is the truth.

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Since the purpose of so called "Messianic Jew " cult (AKA Southern Baptist) is to undermine and eradicate the Jewish religion supporting them is anti-Semitic.