Ultimate Atheist

My last post kinda made it seem like I'm totally against cops. That's not the case. In the suburb where I live its really not that bad. I never see road blocks. The local cops hardly ever pull anyone over. They're really quite helpful in the small town that I live in. I accidentally locked my keys in my car one day and a police officer tried for 20 minutes to get the keys out and appologized about 5 times when he couldn't open the door. I had to talk him into giving up. On top of that it was raining at the time.

Not all cops are bad. But you must also admit that not all cops are good. Lots of times tickets are given to raise revenue. It may not be the cops fault. They're just doing their job. Its the old farts that are making the laws that are to blame. Hmm. Now that I think of it its probably the old farts making the laws that benefit the most from increased revenue.

Ronin

That is a universal trait of all careers...depending mostly upon personal experience.

I suppose roadway maintenance and upgrades might play a minor role as well.

By the way, I enforce the laws as a representative of the will of the people...and you can't please all of them all of the time.

I only realized that very recently.

Godless Dave

Personally whenever I have been ticketed I "deserved" it, in that I was breaking a traffic law and knew it. Personally I think it's safe to drive 85 mph on I-94 (75 within the metro area) but I don't get to set the speed limits so I never felt I could complain much about my tickets. I am sure, however, there are jurisdictions where speed traps are set up to make money. In Minneapolis the big money-maker is snow-emergency tickets, which also include towing and impound fees. The snow-emergency system is needlessly complex and arbitrary in Mpls, plus the "emergencies" last three days at a minimum and sometimes longer. In Saint Paul we get the streets plowed in 24 hours, the system is easy to understand, and there are "Night Plow Route" signs on every block of the night plow routes.

Thanks to budget shortfalls we have very few state police doing speed enforcement. Makes it easier for me to speed but kind of a bummer for anyone in a traffic accident, not to mention there are more serious crimes that need state police attention but aren't getting it (meth labs, child prostitution rings, kidnappings, etc.).

I'm pretty confident bad cops are a small minority, and as Ronin pointed out there are corrupt people and cruel people in every profession. But cops get to carry guns and arrest people and their word is generally trusted by juries, so the bad apples have a bigger impact. Plus the nature of police work often leads to a culture that makes it hard to root out the bad guys.

(Click here for a taste of the Minneapolis police department. An undercover officer got shot by another officer. The chief didn't even visit him in the hospital.)

I feel extra bad for cops because they have a duty to enforce certain laws I don't agree with. On the rare occasions when I interact with them I am careful not to let my wariness show but I am always aware of what is in plain view through my car or house windows and, if it ever comes up, I have a policy of not letting a police officer in my house without a warrant under any circumstances. And thanks to the violent antisocial whackjobs they have to deal with every day I am sure the suspicion is mutual, unfortunately.

Ultimate Atheist

Yes road improvements may play a part. But you can't tell me that there aren't government officials that cream their shorts at the idea of a giving themselves a raise after putting up a few speed traps or starting a new ticketing campaign in the ghetto. There are other ways to improve roads without taking money from poor people that are barely capable of supporting themselves without paying fines to the state for the privilege of driving to work in the morning. I think the main problem with our society is that the people that make the rules don't have to live by them. They take money from people that can barely feed themselves while they live in big houses and drive fancy cars. To them a $500 fine is small change. To the people living in the neighborhoods where I usually see road blocks its a major problem.

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by Ronin
Read better stuff...or better yet, ask your local police chief if it is possible for you to participate in a ride along program for a day or two...or join the reserves.

You are the first person not in a position to benefit from ticket revenue that I've heard say that tickets aren't for revenue.

I did go on a ride-along back in high school (extra credit from driver's ed, and interesting besides) but of course she wasn't operating a speed trap that day.

Sorry, Loren, you are an intelligent citizen and the last person I would find that would assume someone else knew something better...know the law.

You are only nailed if you do not proactively defend yourself in the available court...the system is in place for just such complaints.

I would figure that if I and a cop disagreed over what the traffic law said that the cop was right. Without reason to suspect a problem you assume the professional is right. I only learned of my error once it was too late to fight it. (Not that I would have trusted her to tell the truth in court anyway--I've since learned she's got a bad reputation.)

There are others we would possible disagree on...tag lights, recently expired tags, improper or disabled equipment.

Those aren't really traffic offenses, though.

My city has a little thing called a 'Courtesy Citation' for just such non-aggravating transgressions...they are similar to verbal warnings or work order warnings and have no fines or record associated with them...they are used often, despite your reading material.

Sounds good.

Then see them when they are obviously used for safety...and speak to your city council if you personally perceive abuses.

Note the issue I mentioned regarding wasting natural resources tickets--they *KNOW* it's for revenue.

By your anecdote, I see where the people of that locality perceived a threat to safety initially, re-assessed the situation and made the viable change.

Quit trying to pretend it was legit. There were *NO* local people to be affected! The speed trap was where the Indian reservation intersected the highway. There were no Indians there other than in police cars, though. We're talking a road that could do emergency duty as a runway to any aircraft not too heavy and which shut down it's engines immediately to avoid sucking something in--plenty of space to roll to a stop without reverse thrusters. There is *NO* sign of habitation to the horizon. There's one business whose main advertizing is fireworks of types not permitted elsewhere in the state.

The police were just enforcing the will of the people.

Yeah, make money. The locals (wherever they are, I don't know of anyplace there where anyone lives) don't use the road--it's got exactly one exit in the relevant stretch.

Should your theory of generating revenue hold true...then they would still be there.

No, because with the raised speed limit there aren't that many speeders anymore. Speed limits have just about zero effect on the speed that people actually drive.
In the old days I did an experiment: I set my cruise control to the limit to see what would happen. I was able to keep this up for 100 miles before the road punches through a river gorge and the limits bounce up and down more than once a mile. (Turns with lower limits than the main road.)
Vehicles I passed: Those entering/exiting. Period. The return trip, I tried it again. In addition to the previous cases I passed one motorhome.

Call your Dept of Transportation. Inquire as to whatever perceived inconsistency you observe at certain locations. Take into consideration the other complaints by citizens that may have effected these speed decisions.

And get an honest answer??

I like a well constructed and consistently upgraded roadway system...since they took my horses away.

The reason the measure didn't pass is that they were worried that federal funds would be withheld becasue we had too many speeders. Since then the feds changed the rules, and we raised the relevant speed limits.

Loren Pechtel

I have no problem with them targeting those with no auto insurance, although I think that should be done at the DMV level, not by stopping people.

Ultimate Atheist

I don't have a problem with them wanting to enforce auto insurance laws. I do however have a problem with them charging outrageous fines that they know the people will have a hard time paying. I've been stopped and let go because my car was clean and nice and then passed by a person in an older car that was being harrassed by the cops because they think they can slap a few fines on him. Also I think if auto insurance is going to be mandatory they should provide some sort of regulations to keep the insurance companies from jacking their rates whenever they feel like it. We didn't have laws that required auto insurance here until about 2 years ago. At that time I noticed that lots of the local insurance companies raised the prices for new policies. This country has gotten to the point where it saps the lower classes and no one seems to care. Speed traps are just another way they stick it to the little people and it pisses me off to see it happening. They're not trying to make the roads safer in many cases. Its just a way to raise revenue.

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by Ultimate Atheist
I don't have a problem with them wanting to enforce auto insurance laws. I do however have a problem with them charging outrageous fines that they know the people will have a hard time paying.

No insurance needs to have heavy fines--it has to be more expensive that the insurance.

Also I think if auto insurance is going to be mandatory they should provide some sort of regulations to keep the insurance companies from jacking their rates whenever they feel like it.

Here at least they have had such for a long time. The rates are high because the payouts are high. With several players in the insurance biz competition should be enough anyway.

We didn't have laws that required auto insurance here until about 2 years ago. At that time I noticed that lots of the local insurance companies raised the prices for new policies.

No surprise. Consider: When insurance becomes mandatory, who is going to come in? The irresponsible guys who didn't have it before. Of course the rates would go up.

An issue that's been in the news here: Insurance companies have noticed that there's a very definite relationship between one's credit score and one's risk of an accident. The irresponsible are irresponsible in many ways, not just one. Many people are whining that it's unfair to base rates off credit scores. If it's related to the expected cost, what's the problem?

This country has gotten to the point where it saps the lower classes and no one seems to care. Speed traps are just another way they stick it to the little people and it pisses me off to see it happening. They're not trying to make the roads safer in many cases. Its just a way to raise revenue.

Agreed. Speed traps are almost never justified--there simply aren't enough truly excessive speeders to make staking a spot out a reasonable action.
Furthermore, the spots where there is a true speed problem (like the corner behind a hill that someone mentioned earlier) it's because of the unreasonable speed limits. If the limits reflected what was truly reasonable then when a sign came along that dropped it for no apparent reason people would pay attention--they would figure there's a hidden danger.
As it is, one figures any such odd limit is for revenue purposes.

Optional

Yeah, tickets for the sole purpose of revenue raising DO exist, most definitely. Dunno where you live, Ronin, but I live in Chicago, and here it seems that the government, both cityofchicago and villageoflombard (I actually live out in the suburbs) is primarily in business to fill city and village coffers. There are hundreds of little ways they nab us ... from traffic tickets all the way down to the toll roads that were supposedly only temporary and were gonna be phased out verysoonnow years ago.

Understand, I'm saying nothing against the actual cops here, it's the politicians at fault... It's just that the revenue gathering around here is so utterly transparent that it gets really frustrating, ya know?

-me

Godless Dave

Exactly. The cops' job is to enforce the laws, and often they have ticket quotas.