6748_smith_w

Godot said:
"Neutraceutical companies are pushing their products as "essential to health" while neglecting to mention that a balanced diet precludes their use. If you remain unconvinced, then go with a multivitamin *cringe* but do not take it daily!"


Why the cringe? A multivitamin would have saved me years of suffering. For some reason unbeknown to me, I can't stand the taste of any food that contains vitamin A, either in its preformed or precursor state (except maybe spinach). Not knowing a lot about nutrition at the time, I simply avoided the foods I didn't like, and unknowingly removed all sources of vitamin A from my diet. Luckily, I took a multivitamin daily through high school, but stopped when I got to college (to save money for beer, of course). You can probably figure out the rest. Since hypovitaminosis A is so uncommon, and since doctors in the US are motivated by trying to save HMO's money instead of helping people, it wasn't diagnosed till 7 years later (by a nutritionist). Unfortunately, the mechanisms that slow the progression of vitamin A deficiency also slow (or even prevent) the recovery process, and since my case was untreated for so long, the recovery process is proving to be extremely slow and miserable. As far as taking supplements is concerned, I think it is a good idea as long as it is done in moderation, meaning taking no more than the RDA of any given nutrient.

Dr Rick

A multivitamin that provides the recommended daily values of folic acid, B6, B12, vitamin E and may reduce the risk of a variety of chronic diseases, is inexpensive, and carries no risk of vitamin toxicity. Vitamins A, C, D, and mineral supplememnts can be toxic in very high doses, but in the doses found in most multivitamins pose no risk and may be beneficial as well. Pregnant women should take a vitamin supplements to decrease the risk of certain birth defects.

Some mineral and vitamin supplements can interfere with the absorption of certain medications, so if you are on medication therapy, check with your provider before starting on any supplement.

Rick

Viti

This was me until I was in my 30's, then my metabolism changed. It was then harder for me to lose weight because I had never had good habits...so I had to start consciously think about what I was eating.

Not everyone goes through that though, maybe its a female thing...my dad is still skinny as a rail and my husband is very lean and athletic as well...but my mom and I both started having to watch it in our 30's

JGL53

Who except an anal retentive can make sure he or she gets all the necessary nutrients through his or her daily diet alone?

What's the big deal about taking a RDA multivitamin wilth minerals each day just to make sure you get the essentials?
A year's supply cost about $12 at Vitamin World. So ninety-nine per cent goes out with your urine - that one per cent could save your ass - like the guy with the vitamin A problem.

Nuno Figueira

Couldn't stop entering this conversation.

A high protein diet has only been linked to an aggravation of pre existing kidney disease, not to renal failure in healthy individuals. Mankind has been on a relatively high protein diet for a long time before the agricultural revolution and all obsevation on hunther gatherer populations show they possess better health than most of us.

This is true, the way carbs end up making you fat is by promoting storage of free fatty acids in the blood stream, it's not so much that glucose gets converted and stored as fat (though for your information it does happen, the term is Denovo lipogenesis) but that in the presence of carbs (the most convenient fuel) fat gets stored. Now some may reason that you should then cut all fats in order to not get fat but unfortunately our bodies need fat, but they don't need carbs. There's no such thing as an essential carbohydrate.

Well, it's just another diet. There's nothing wrong with it but there are many other ways to do it.

True, calories are the main issue and adequeate fluid intake is vital.

And isn't 40% of the population iron deficient? Have to do some research on this, if I have the time.



Vegetables?? Spinach? Do you know that the countries with the larger ostheoporosis rates are also the ones that drink more milk? Sedentarism is the main issue in whast concerns bone loss. We don't need milk, we did fine without it for a few million years and guess what? Pre agricultural man, which didn't have dairy readily available to them and followed a diet with similarities to atkins and other low carb diets, had much better bone density than any of us.

Not really, vegetables are not that restricted beyond those first weeks. If you get all your carbs from green leafyveggies then you'll have no problems with lack of antioxidants.

Doesn't matter, you don't need these foods.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Ketones are a by product of fat metabolism. Ketosis will be entered if your carb intake fails to satisfy your brain and liver needs. Please show me the evidence that ketosis is dangerous to the kidneys of an healthy individual.

Well, the bad breath you have to live with, constipation can be an issue but only happens if you don't have enough fibrous veggies in your diet.

So true. There won't be a significan difference in what concerns fat loss between atkins and any other equivalent calorie diet (provided the same protein intake is achieved) but there is a lean body mass sparing effect.

JGL53

Please stop making sense, Nuno Figueira - Godot gets confused when you do that.

alek0

Some questions for Atkins diet fans:

1) What was the life expectancy of pre-agricultural man?

2) Would you agree that one can have kidney problems without being aware of it (i.e. it is possible that there is time between onset of disease and onset of symptoms)

3) What about long term cancer risks especially colon cancer?

4) Please explain how is severely limited intake of fruits healthy in the long run.

5) Do you honestly believe that a hamburger makes healthier snack than an apple?

Nuno Figueira

Just slighty higher than that of early agricultural man. There was a merked drop in stature, bone density and a increase in symptoms like mineral deficiency associated with an high percentage of grain products in diet. In case you're not aware, grains have a very high anti nutrient contentwhich in their whole forms, ends up causing mineral deficiency in populations that have upwards of 70% of total calories derived from grains.


Modern man lives longer because science can make up for our careless nutritional habits, not because we eat better.


Again, I've done a good deal of research on this and I failed to find any peer reviewed literature showing renal disease appearance in a previous healthy subject directly attributed to an high protein intake. Please show me evidence.

Not sure there's any data on low carb diets and colon cancer. Millions have been on it and I've never seen any statistical data showing a direct relation, but then again, just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

High carbs diets have long been associated with the onset of diabetes and while this doesn't mean carbs are the sources of all evil it is clearly a argument for low carb.

Well, I have my piece of ruit daily, I'm not really a fan of extreme low carb, just moderate. Again, if you veggie comsumption is in check, fruit is redundant.

Well, quite diferent things aren't they? A grass fed hamburger (no bread) would probably be my choice, but fruit does have it's place.

Godot

Agreed, although there is some controversial type stuff out there suggesting otherwise. My use of the word "failure" was certainly unjustified. I was in the middle of a rant, working off of the top of my head and didn't take the time to make sure I got my facts straight. Sue me.
If by "better' you mean free from lifestyle diseases, then I'd agree with you. If you mean they were living in an idyllic age, then I'd say you were delusional. Hunter-gatherer populations suffered the worst from nutritional deficiency diseases simply because of the reduced availability of foodstuffs. Doesn't sound "better" to me. Point me towards these observations of yours; I'd like to see the error of my ways.

FFA's circulate in the blood. They are stored in adipose tissue. What is the mechanism at work here that the presence of CHO invokes FFA storage? Check your physiology.
De novo is a nice touch. A bit poncy, but nice. Lipogenesis is usually sufficient. You neglect to mention that it only occurs when there is a surfeit of energy intake. In an energy deficit or balance, this will not happen as there is no need to store the non-existant energy difference.
Now this isn't misleading at all. While it is technically possible to subsist without consuming any CHO at all, to suggest doing so is moronic. CHO is not considered "essential" because the absence of it will not kill you, unlike essential amino acids or essential fatty acids.

I wouldn't be able to verify this one; iron isn't my area. Besides, are we talking about full blown iron deficiency exclusively, or are we including iron depletion as well? Iron supplementation should only be undertaken under the direct guidance of a physician or dietician. Doing it wantonly of your own accord is asking for trouble.

The western paradox is an interesting phenomena. It is also multifactorial and like everything else nutritionally related, cannot be ascribed a causal relationship.
The main problem with non-dairy sources of calcium is bioavailability. Dairy sources posssess high bioavailability. If you're going to eschew dairy, rely on calcium-fortified soy milk.

Osteoporosis wouldn't have been a great concern in pre-agrarian societies. People didn't live long enough for it to be an issue. This doesn't mean that we can equally disregard the need for maintaining a hig calcium intake. We encourage people to consume calcium while they are young in order to best enable them to achieve peak bone mass. A greater bone density when young will reduce the risk of contracting osteoporosis or osteopenia when older.
I agree that weight bearing activity plays a particularly strong role in achieving peak bone mass. A sedentary lifestyle contributes to diminishing this. That said, you still cannot build the bone structure without the calcium to do it with.

But you said above that CHO wasn't essential. If CHO isn't essential why do you need them from green leafy vegetables?

Another tack: using the zone "ideal" of 40:30:30, on a 2000kcal/d diet, my 40% CHO equals 1100kcal. With 4kcal/g of CHO, this means we need 275g of CHO/d.
If I'm "getting all my carbs" from a green leafy (say lettuce), to get 275g of CHO I'd need to eat 275 cups of lettuce per day. Prefer radicchio? Only 137 cups per day of that one. Maybe you'd rather eat boiled spinach. You'll only need ~35 cups per day of that one.
Don't believe me? Check my source yourself (pages 15-17). This resource is only directly applicable in North America. The nutritional profile of food varies greatly according to where you are in the world.

Now you're going to tell me that your pet dietary theory is maligned, ostracised and pushed to the sidelines by the established medical hierarchy; it's just too "controversial" for them to accept, right? What other conspiracy theories are you going to try to sell me on?

I'll gladly wear this one. I fucked up. As I said above, I originated with a rant without putting the effort into the details that my memory was shoddy on. Sorry for the misunderstanding, thanks for the correction. Sue me if you don't like it.

Godot

While a vitamin obviously has benefitted you, yours is a sepcial case. Vitamin A deficiency isn't exactly common in western society; presented with the symptoms, a doctor isn't necessarily arrive at a correct diagnosis.
My cringe is for the average person. Apart from certain clinical situations or pregnancy/lactation, if you eat a balanced diet (and no you don't need to be anal for this to happen), then you don't require a multi. People will use a vitamin as a crutch abetting them in not adopting a proper diet. "I can eat what I want because my vitamin will make it all better" is an attitude that just gives me the shits. Not that that's your problem. :boohoo: