Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Optional · 04-11-2003, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Larry
It's just that money was not one of them

Go ahead and belive that. Don't let the facts get in your way.

WHAT facts? I see Evangelion's facts, and I see your facts. Both of you actually agree on all the facts that intersect. It's just that his show context, yours don't. And when viewed in context, it is extremely obvious that money is NOT a motivating factor here. Now, again, neither am I saying france was pure in its motives... Only that THIS isn't a part of it.

-me

matthias j. · 04-12-2003, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soyin Milka
If you insist on claiming the french and germans opposed the war to protect their interests, try to make that argument using the euro. At least that argument makes sense. Irak was the first OPEC country to use the euro for international trade. Protecting that is indeed in their interests. They would love to have a strong currency to compete with the US dollar. But the americans are no better. I expect one of the first thing done by the new iraki government will be to switch to the US dollar.

Well �1 is worth about $1.1 today, so I guess the euro already is a strong currency. Unfortenately, it's killing our exports :-/

Answerer · 04-12-2003, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soyin Milka
Larry...

The french, the americans, the chinese, the russians, the germans... They are all the same. I'm sure some regular posters here could provide us with a comparable summary of american deals with Irak.

At least, we are same with three-quarter of the world population unlike Bush.

Infinity Lover · 04-12-2003, 10:40 AM

As far as motives go, I wouldn't want to exclude national political stability. Unlike the USA, or the UK, the government in many other countries has to be formed by a coalition of more than one party. A discussion like support the US wareffort yes/no can have quite an unstabelizing effect on either maintaining the current government, or the process of assembling a new one. I know it ended up playing a major part in the failed formation of the new dutch government, because the Labourparty and the Christian Democrats couldn't see eye to eye there.

Some people do have to run a country, while another country is being run into the ground. And don't forget that the previous gulfwar, when Germany and France did get involved, came about after Iraq invading Quwait. A flat-out justification for millitary action that's somewhat lacking this time around. (Has anyone seen those images of uncovered weapons of mass destruction yet?)

Farren · 04-12-2003, 03:27 PM

Larry,

I'll have to go with Optional. Having read Evangelions posts as well as yours, the former clearly shows that France lacks the claimed incentive, and is not refuted by yours

That said, excellent posts nonetheless. Certainly above the unsubstantiated mass posting of IMHO's I've seen elsewhere

sullster · 04-12-2003, 03:33 PM

More reasons.

France and Germany have large Islamic populations which would have caused a lot of trouble if they joined the war on Iraq. France could have had a nationalist right wing reaction to the discontent of the Islamic population. All these factors add to the desire not to rock any boats at home. Also, the French are very angry that the US Army now has berets. The American barbarians have stolen a peice of French culture and that is tres gauche!

Germany has a large Turkish population, which it doesn't want to see riled up. Also, the infantry union would not fight on the weekends.

On the issue of American and British tensions among their soldiers, well, that is an old tradition. Look at WW2. From privates to generals, there was friction. Militaries reflect the society from which they come and US and English cultures have some unique and differing aspects.

I also admire Tony Blair. He has a lot of guts and is a very articulate guy. I still say thanks Brits, and fungooo to you Frenchies and Germs.

Sabine Grant · 04-12-2003, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ
And those people are foreigners--something the French don't give a damn about. The FFL has a huge mortality rate over the enlistment period (like 10% over 3 years!), and this is mainly because the French don't give a damn what happens to foreigners.

That is uncorrect.... The FFL requires a foreign nationality which is acquired by french legionnaires more so as a symbol than a civil reality. Many have a dual citizenship as a result.

Gurdur · 04-12-2003, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sullster
More reasons.

France and Germany have large Islamic populations which would have caused a lot of trouble if they joined the war on Iraq. ....

You're getting hilarious, Sullster !

To refresh your knowledge, Germany was a supporter of the first Iraq war, which shoots your argument completely out of the water, and indeed has naval troops in Djibouti as part of the ongoing anti-terrorism operations; France has no problems militarily intervening in Islamic countries, and quite frequently does in Central Africa.

Really,Sullster, some day you'll have to come up with something better than your little prejudices dressed up in 4th-grade descriptions.

Sabine Grant · 04-12-2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sullster
More reasons.

Also, the French are very angry that the US Army now has berets. The American barbarians have stolen a peice of French culture and that is tres gauche!

As well as attributing to french culture so many other renamed items such as the unfamous " french fries"...actualy the Basques should be the ones mad over the berets...

I have been ordering "frites" lately...

Sabine Grant · 04-12-2003, 03:59 PM

The majority of our islamic population lives in France by personal choice over their own country. Some fled from regimes as tyranic as Irak's. Some look for economical improvement especialy from Algeria. I do not agree that our islamic population would have caused problems. They do however as they watch the support of Sharon's regime by the US.
It is also a possibility that France still retains the same spirit of independence from US interference with other countries as demonstrated by the Grand Charles.

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04-12-2003, 10:40 AM	#34
Infinity Lover Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,047	As far as motives go, I wouldn't want to exclude national political stability. Unlike the USA, or the UK, the government in many other countries has to be formed by a coalition of more than one party. A discussion like support the US wareffort yes/no can have quite an unstabelizing effect on either maintaining the current government, or the process of assembling a new one. I know it ended up playing a major part in the failed formation of the new dutch government, because the Labourparty and the Christian Democrats couldn't see eye to eye there. Some people do have to run a country, while another country is being run into the ground. And don't forget that the previous gulfwar, when Germany and France did get involved, came about after Iraq invading Quwait. A flat-out justification for millitary action that's somewhat lacking this time around. (Has anyone seen those images of uncovered weapons of mass destruction yet?)

04-12-2003, 03:27 PM	#35
Farren Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: South Africa Posts: 2,194	Larry, I'll have to go with Optional. Having read Evangelions posts as well as yours, the former clearly shows that France lacks the claimed incentive, and is not refuted by yours That said, excellent posts nonetheless. Certainly above the unsubstantiated mass posting of IMHO's I've seen elsewhere

04-12-2003, 03:33 PM	#36
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	More reasons. France and Germany have large Islamic populations which would have caused a lot of trouble if they joined the war on Iraq. France could have had a nationalist right wing reaction to the discontent of the Islamic population. All these factors add to the desire not to rock any boats at home. Also, the French are very angry that the US Army now has berets. The American barbarians have stolen a peice of French culture and that is tres gauche! Germany has a large Turkish population, which it doesn't want to see riled up. Also, the infantry union would not fight on the weekends. On the issue of American and British tensions among their soldiers, well, that is an old tradition. Look at WW2. From privates to generals, there was friction. Militaries reflect the society from which they come and US and English cultures have some unique and differing aspects. I also admire Tony Blair. He has a lot of guts and is a very articulate guy. I still say thanks Brits, and fungooo to you Frenchies and Germs.

04-12-2003, 03:59 PM	#40
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	The majority of our islamic population lives in France by personal choice over their own country. Some fled from regimes as tyranic as Irak's. Some look for economical improvement especialy from Algeria. I do not agree that our islamic population would have caused problems. They do however as they watch the support of Sharon's regime by the US. It is also a possibility that France still retains the same spirit of independence from US interference with other countries as demonstrated by the Grand Charles.

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