Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Photocrat · 01-19-2002, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HRG:


You have (I don't know whether inadvertantly) committed an important fallacy: the unsubstantiated claim that belief is a matter of choice.

I do not choose whether to believe the fundamental theorem of algebra or not, whether to believe that the Earth is spherical or not. I am convinced by evidence.

Why should it be different for the existence of supernatural entities ? Can you choose to believe in Zeus ? For analogous reasons, I can not choose to believe in your God.

If you can substitute the desire to believe X for the lack of evidence for X, good for you. My mind doesn't work that way.

HRG.

Mere curiousity, but how do you deal with the axiom of choice, then? :] You're the one who brought up mathematics ...

OTOH, I base my beliefs on the best evidence I can find.

Photocrat · 01-19-2002, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman:
You mean creationists are Unchristian?

More like unscientific. I find evolution to be valid science.

Quote:

Explain how complicated original sin is.

There are a number of important controversies over it, which divide various denominations. This isn't the thread to discuss it, I think.

Quote:

Sure many Dalits have been converted. But also, bcoming disgusted by how uppercaste christians still treat them (and also because govt. allied missionary patronage disappeared with independance) many convert back to hinudism. Also, today the conversion choice is for Buddhism, as I have already explained. They get psychological release and get to continue worshipping hindu gods and goddesses.

By the way, quiet a few Christians seem to have become hindus, if some of the posts in the hindu forums are right.

*shrug*

Change takes time.

lpetrich · 01-19-2002, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Hinduwoman:
Here I am speaking not as an atheist, but as a cultural hindu.

A Hindu atheist, I suppose, like the admitted Jewish atheists here.

Quote:

I am sick of hearing Christians claim that theirs is the only true path.

I think that it might be fun to introduce them to some Muslims, especially some obnoxiously evangelical Muslims, like some Taliboy-ish converts.

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I am sick of hearing them say that the hindu scriptures are stolen from the gospels.

I wonder which among them says that? I can imagine some of them claiming that the story of Krishna's birth is a ripoff of the Gospels, but that's about it. In fact, there are interesting similarities: conception by a deity, annunciation by angels/deities, a wicked king who wants to kill the baby prophet, a narrow escape and the child being raised in some other place. In fact, both Jesus Christ and Krishna fit Lord Raglan's "Mythic Hero" profile very well, with JC actually fitting somewhat better than Krishna.

Quote:

I am sick of hearing the evangelists say that Christ invented love, comapssion and charity and so hindus should convert to christinaity.

He was not known for Family Values, he would get very angry at those who were unwilling to listen to him, and he got angry at a certain fig tree for not bearing figs when he happened to be hungry.

Quote:

I am sick of christian missionaries and other stupid christians go on about the evils of hinduism as manifested in treatment of women and casteism while refusing to acknowledge their own contribution in this regard to sexism, slavery, racism, feudalism etc. ...

How many female priests does the Catholic Church have, for instance? Some Protestant churches do have clergywomen, but much of that has been over the last few decades, and certainly not the last 2000 years.

Quote:

After 200 years and billions of dollars, you have managed to make only 2.6% of the population Christian. Among them, a sizeable portion were converted by Thomas the Apostle and another lot in 4 A.D. (I think about 50%)

These old Christians were probably converted 300-500 CE, when it got big enough in the Roman Empire, and before there was Islam to get in the way of missionaries' travels in the Middle East. However, there is supposedly in southern India the spear that Jesus Christ had been stabbed with, but I'd put that down to shameless Christian relic-mongering.

Quote:

By the way, quiet a few Christians seem to have become hindus, if some of the posts in the hindu forums are right.

What do they say? That Christianity's more zealous followers are far from saints? That the Bible and Christian theology are illogical? That Hinduism links with their ancestry much better?

HRG · 01-19-2002, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Photocrat:


Mere curiousity, but how do you deal with the axiom of choice, then? :] You're the one who brought up mathematics ...

OTOH, I base my beliefs on the best evidence I can find.

That far, we agree :-)

Re AoC: There are some theorems which are only true if the AoC is assumed (like the Well-Ordering theorem), and others which are only true if the negation of the AoC is assumed. Like Euclidean vs. Non-Euclidean geometry ...

IIRC, the fundamental theorem of algebra does not require the full AoC.

Regards,
HRG.

Photocrat · 01-20-2002, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HRG:


That far, we agree :-)

Re AoC: There are some theorems which are only true if the AoC is assumed (like the Well-Ordering theorem), and others which are only true if the negation of the AoC is assumed. Like Euclidean vs. Non-Euclidean geometry ...

IIRC, the fundamental theorem of algebra does not require the full AoC.

Regards,
HRG.

Yeah, what you said was okay, so far as it went, save for that one little nitpick. But isn't the choice of whether or not to use the AoC pretty arbitrary right now [or, at least, there are arguements that both accepting & rejecting it lead to counter-intuitive propositions]?

I guess you don't really "believe" in it, per se, but the choice of whether or not to use it has significant impact on your mathematics... *shrug*

I the end, though, I think we all go for whatever we have the best evidence for. We just might not agree about which way the evidence points :]

theophilus · 01-22-2002, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman:


Of course it is meant to be perjorative.
Here I am speaking not as an atheist, but as a cultural hindu.

I'm not where this puts you theologically. Are you arguing against "cultural" Christians? This is a different issue.

I am sick of hearing Christians claim that theirs is the only true path.

Christ made this claim (consistent with the Old Testament law). We did not "make this up."

I am sick of hearing them say that the hindu scriptures are stolen from the gospels.

I have never heard of said this. I have heard here that the gospel was stolen/adapted from other traditions. I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge that the vedas, etc., have their own origin. That does nothing to settle the issue of truth.

I am sick of hearing the evangelists say that Christ invented love, comapssion and charity and so hindus should convert to christinaity.
Again, I've never heard this. Christ's sacrifice was the fullest expression of God's love and is the motivation for our love of God.

I am sick of christian missionaries and other stupid christians go on about the evils of hinduism as manifested in treatment of women and casteism while refusing to acknowledge their own contribution in this regard to sexism, slavery, racism, feudalism etc.

The evils perpetrated by Christians cannot be traced to the fundamental teachings of the NT as can castism, etc. be traced to the fundamental nature of Hinduism or as violence can be traced to the fundamental teachings of Islam.

Even things like Inquisition are sought to be covered up by weasel apologies like they were not real christians.

We do not seek to hide or explain these things. We denounce them as unchristian.

Of course it is a defect in the True Word of god, if it cannot convince others and it is sought to be explained away in terms like Satan rules them.
This is rank question begging. The Bible has convinced millions and it explains why others do not believe. Have you actually read what you criticize?

some interesting little titbits:
Some hindus are certainly Christians, but I guess many of them would not suit whatever brand of christianity you are peddling. After 200 years and billions of dollars, you have managed to make only 2.6% of the population Christian. Among them, a sizeable portion were converted by Thomas the Apostle and another lot in 4 A.D. (I think about 50%)

This is a reverse form of the ad populum argument, i.e., Christianity must not be true because most people don't believe it.

The first thing The Roman Catholic church did on coming to India to show how they love all, is to set up the Inquisition to force Syrian christians into declaring:
(i) the Pope is the sole christian authority (all equal before the One)
(ii) they must recant the hinduish error that "all men can be saved by their own laws and all laws are right" (brotherhood can only be achieved if everyone believed the same thing, eh?)
The Catholic churches tactics were and are wrong. They dishonor Christ. Christ did not preach universal brotherhood and, yes, the idea expressed in ii is heretical.

But of course untouchability was allowed, since not following caste would mean disrupting trade.

A shame, indeed.

Waning Moon Conrad · 01-23-2002, 05:23 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Albert Cipriani:

You thought wrong because you have a misconception of the function of the Good News. 

I can truly say that I have read Romans and Corinthians over several days whilst sitting on the toilet pumping out turds and found them to quite literally be the most repulsive, the ugliest and most utterly worthless garbage I have ever read in my life.

Paul was a sick, bitter, twisted cur and anyone who believes that that ranting prick's opinions are the word of god is a......well I won't be so rude as to state it explicitly.

God's Revelation does not persuade.

Really? You don't say!

But if you want to be thrilled, inspired, motivated, confirmed and at peace, accept the Good News as you'd accept any newspaper article. 

If you want to deaden your mind and fill yourself with a vacuous conceit about instant salvation and having a big mate in the sky accept the opinions of Paul as the word of god.

You are under no obligation to find the Good News unacceptable simply because it is un-convincing. 

No, but that's because people are allowed to be as bright or as stupid as they decide they wish to be.

 Rather, you are under an obligation to accept the Good News unless you can find convincing reasons not to. I'm here to tell you there are none. Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

A smug and worthless assertion.

FarSeeker · 01-23-2002, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Coleman Smith:
Epitome said, "The logic the lower caste Indians see in Christianity is that Hinduism brings poverty and stagnation while Christianity opens the doors to a country with people who are equal and help one another."

Coleman replies:

If you want to see a caste system created by our white Anglo-Saxon protestant forebears take the interstate west of Hobbs, Mew Mexico in to what is referred to as Navaho Land.

The Native Americans there, and else where,understand what a caste system and tell us all about ethnic cleansing.

It seems that the Christians traded bibles and syphilis for their land.

Coleman Smith
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The assertion that the universe is surrounded in grape jelly is more credible than the assertion that we are the immortal pets of some deity.

1. What happen to the American Indians was not the result of Christianity but of greed. There were Christians who resisted that evil. On the other hand, consider what rational Atheists have done around the world. Afghanistan (mines in the shapes of toys), the Tiahmin (sp?) Massacre, Lenin purges, Stalin purges, Pol Pot purges...
If your in power, Atheism is the way to go.

2. Check your facts again, I think you will find syphilis was first reported in Europe after Columbus returned from the Americas. "They" gave it to "us"!

hinduwoman · 01-23-2002, 07:06 PM

Hi Ipetrich.
If you search the net itself there are lots of Christian sites saying that hindu scriptures are stolen from gospels and that hinduism as a religion-cum-culture is bad totally.

hinduwoman · 01-23-2002, 07:16 PM

Theophilus, I don't believe in god, but I thought I would make it clear that I am protesting against this trashing of my community and heritage.

Sure I have read the bible and it is no more convincing than hindu myths.

As I said you go on saying that these are unchristian people. But you have no problems informing us that problems exist in Indian society solely due to Hindu religion.

In hindu scriptures it is said that caste depends on one's works and qualities of mind, not on birth alone. A Brahmin who lies is a shudra and a Shudra who displays compassion, charity and uprighteousness is a Brahmin. However Christian writers are naturally careful to leave out these portions and hold up the bad, in some cases totally distorting the picture.

Christ said "Those who are not with us are against us" --- immediate justification for Crusades. since christ said I am the way your fellowreligionists decided it is ok to burn heretics and atheists.

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: hinduwoman ]

01-23-2002, 05:23 PM	#167
Waning Moon Conrad Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Victoria. Australia Posts: 1,417	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Albert Cipriani: <strong> You thought wrong because you have a misconception of the function of the Good News. </strong> I can truly say that I have read Romans and Corinthians over several days whilst sitting on the toilet pumping out turds and found them to quite literally be the most repulsive, the ugliest and most utterly worthless garbage I have ever read in my life. Paul was a sick, bitter, twisted cur and anyone who believes that that ranting prick's opinions are the word of god is a......well I won't be so rude as to state it explicitly. <strong>God's Revelation does not persuade.</strong> Really? You don't say! <strong>But if you want to be thrilled, inspired, motivated, confirmed and at peace, accept the Good News as you'd accept any newspaper article. </strong> If you want to deaden your mind and fill yourself with a vacuous conceit about instant salvation and having a big mate in the sky accept the opinions of Paul as the word of god. <strong>You are under no obligation to find the Good News unacceptable simply because it is un-convincing. </strong> No, but that's because people are allowed to be as bright or as stupid as they decide they wish to be. <strong> Rather, you are under an obligation to accept the Good News unless you can find convincing reasons not to. I'm here to tell you there are none. Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic</strong> A smug and worthless assertion.

01-23-2002, 07:16 PM	#170
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Theophilus, I don't believe in god, but I thought I would make it clear that I am protesting against this trashing of my community and heritage. Sure I have read the bible and it is no more convincing than hindu myths. As I said you go on saying that these are unchristian people. But you have no problems informing us that problems exist in Indian society solely due to Hindu religion. In hindu scriptures it is said that caste depends on one's works and qualities of mind, not on birth alone. A Brahmin who lies is a shudra and a Shudra who displays compassion, charity and uprighteousness is a Brahmin. However Christian writers are naturally careful to leave out these portions and hold up the bad, in some cases totally distorting the picture. Christ said "Those who are not with us are against us" --- immediate justification for Crusades. since christ said I am the way your fellowreligionists decided it is ok to burn heretics and atheists. [ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: hinduwoman ]</p>

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01-23-2002, 07:06 PM	#169
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Hi Ipetrich. If you search the net itself there are lots of Christian sites saying that hindu scriptures are stolen from gospels and that hinduism as a religion-cum-culture is bad totally.

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