Hobbs

How did this higher being get here? Oh, he just exists? No reason? Just random (uncreated)?

There must be something that "just exists," no constraints, no reasons, no nothing. Given that whatever this is, it, by definition, has no contraints on it or reasons for it, there is nothing saying that it must have been one way and not another, nothing saying it could not have been a given way. If there were such constraints, we'd have to ask where they came from, and whether anything further constrains them.

Something exists, obviously. But what, ultimately, is it? Since there are, and can be, no constraints whatsoever on whatever ultimately exists, there is no reason that it must have been, say, conscious, immaterial, material, or anything else.

Now, we know that this natural world we live in exists. But we don't, as you admit, have proof that a god exists. And there is no reason to think that the natural world can't be what ultimately exists, that it couldn't just exist on its own, since there are and can be no constraints on whatever ultimately exists. So there is no reason to think that there must have been a god to create the natural world. So, unless there is concrete, positive, direct evidence of the existence of a god, I see no reason to have to posit its existence to explain anything, since it is an unnecessary hypothesis, and doesn't really actually explain anything anyway.

Philosoft

Of course they're reliable, they all believe in the same mythical being. The question is, are their opinions valid?

RJS

Like I said (and meant) - Im not sure what I have posted in response to anyone today. So let me try again from scratch on this post.

I think the argument is that we have the choice to accept (i.e. humble ourselves before, worship, love) God, or totally reject God and place ourselves in the center of the picture. Like it or not, the Creator wants us to (out of His love) to find Him, love Him, and worship Him. Those that choose otherwise can live eternally without Him (the argument gets further complicated when we get into descriptions about what such an existence is). So the question is - are you in or out? Like I said earlier, try fasting for a few days, and you will quickly realize that we need quite alot from the Lord.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

RJS

I really do feel that there is a piece of the puzzle missing. And I strongly believe that it is significantly more likely than all of this (existence) being a random event. I also feel it has something to do with agape love. And I have the hunch that our concept of time is irrelevant with respect to God. Don't ask me to elaborate, please, because I cant.

free12thinker

I'll take evolution until any evidence concerning a higher being exists. And 2 billion people are not evidence. 2 billion people are listening to what they were told to listen to. It's that simple. Word spreads fast, and people don't often ask questions. It's easier to follow the crowd. Have you ever heard the phrase, ignorance is bliss? This pertains to a lot of people in the world (and no, I am not referring to any one group of people). I am simply stating that people would rather not revel in something as big as the concept of life. People carry this "lazy" attitude towards philosophy and life with them through work, family and play. It's just easier. And by the way, the Christian Coalition, through 250 independent polls, found that 68 percent (+/- 3%) of people who note themselves as Christians, do not believe that god's list of sins fits in with today's culture. Another 54% admitted to have never seen or felt the rpesence of God. When asked why they believe in God, 62% noted the complexities of the world seem to point to a god. This isn't deep faith in a specific deity, it's belief that something must've created all of this wonder. So when you note that you would rather take the odds (2 Billion) remember that 2 billion people claiming they are Christian does not equate to 2 billion people believing in any particular god. I don't even want to guess how many people actually go to church, or cuss, smoke, drink, cheat, have sex before marriage, and yet call themselves Christians. This was not a part of the poll, but the number would be high.

ex-preacher

Since half of that 2 billion are Roman Catholics and the other 1 billion are split into 33,800 feuding factions - I assume you must be Roman Catholic. Afater all, how could 1 billion people be wrong?

atheist_in_foxhole

How could an all-powerful god "want" anything?

free12thinker

So, LIke it or not, we can follow him, and worship him, OR live forever without him.

This is not Free Will.

Sorry buddy.

I will say one thing. It's nice to have a theist who posts here and does so in a professional and polite manner.

RJS

Yes, and I wouldn't be here if I was relaxed.

With respect to the 2 billion - as maybe you have seen by now - I have stated that it is WAY high.

You need to understand that I am a "born again" Christian. It has been one year (and a great year). Notwithstanding the fact that I spell athiest wrong occasionally, I do have a higher degree (finance - not philosophy or English )and have been actively and purposefully seeking truth. I come here with good intentions.

RJS

Was RC, but no longer. Born again Protestant to put myself in a bucket.