Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The Other Michael · 07-03-2002, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brighid:
Unfortunately if it isn�t English or German my foreign language skills are practically zero � once upon a time they were sooooo much better. But my German is VERY rusty right now! So, if you care to translate I will be more then happy to answer your question

Hi Brighid,

I escaped taking any foreign languages in school, so I just know snippets here and there from my reading.

I'm surprised you haven't run across that Latin phrase before - "who will watch the watchers?".

cheers,
Michael

Cutter · 07-03-2002, 07:34 PM

The phrase is actually quis custodiet ipsos custodes, not istos and it means 'who guards the guards?'.

Mais n'enculons pas des mouches.

The Other Michael · 07-03-2002, 08:25 PM

Hi Cutter,

I blame it all on the Internet!

I did a google search on "who will watch the watchers" and that came up.

And since I don't speak Latin, it looked good to me.

Thanks for the correction.

cheers,
Michael

Cutter · 07-03-2002, 08:29 PM

Well I don't speak Latin either, but I am a big fan of Yes Minister/Prime Minister.

Personally, I'm just waiting for someone who speaks French to come along!

(Edited to add: Holy carp! Babelfish gives the clean version!).

[ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: Cutter ]

snatchbalance · 07-04-2002, 05:22 AM

never mind, need to think about this a little more.

[ July 04, 2002: Message edited by: snatchbalance ]

lpetrich · 07-07-2002, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Katey:

Did you know that the male and female brain is even structured differently? Personally, I think we're heading for a kind of unisex society. Don't you think that sounds boring?

How differently? Carol Tavris notes that there are lots and lots of studies that show that the two sexes' mental functions are very much alike. But that does not fit in with "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" expectations.

That does not stop us from having a strong identity as one of the sexes -- the ability to have such an identity is clearly yet another shared feature

And although there may well be a limited amount of truth in claims of innate psychological difference, there are also ways in which sociocultural evolution can mimic biological evolution.

Consider a society of warniks and a society of peaceniks. The warniks attempt to conquer the peaceniks, and succeed on account of their greater military skills. And all one sees is warniks. This may account for the superabundance of wars in all of recorded history -- that those who win them are those who are willing to fight them.

Women having to be pregnant and care for small children may have a similar sort of holding-back effect on women across cultures; women are also less expendable in battle, so it's most convenient to send the men off to war.

So while there may be some innate differences, these differences may be relatively weak.

lpetrich · 07-07-2002, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Katey:

... Personally, I think we're heading for a kind of unisex society. Don't you think that sounds boring?

And why is a "unisex society" supposed to be such a horror?

bonduca · 07-07-2002, 06:19 AM

There is a huge difference between unisex and strictly defined sex roles whose boundaries are guarded by an angel with a flaming sword.

Bree · 07-07-2002, 08:04 AM

Someone said something like "there is no objectification of women in the workplace nowadays" about three or four pages back - my mind is too cluttered to pinpoint the exact quotation. However, I'm going to give you a little first-hand information:

I work for <a href="http://www.ups.com" target="_blank">UPS</a> - a typically male-based company (it is male-based primarily because of the industry - when you think of a UPS driver or package handler, you certainly don't think of a woman). I was recently promoted to management, I am the youngest person ever to hold this position (I am 20 years old). I am the only woman in our state to hold this position. However, my boss (and everyone else) refers to me as "Office Girl" even though my duties do not take place in the office.

You'd think that equal work comes with equal pay - but no. The man who had the job before me was paid exactly $733 more [i]per month[i/] for doing the exact same thing. The company has not yet provided me with a good reason as to why I'm paid less than the middle-aged man who held the position previously. To tell the truth, I'm not wanting the money - the prestige and the possibilities of promotion are enough for me.

If you think that sexual harassment is dead in the workplace, you're wrong. A few weeks ago my supervisor decided it was entirely appropriate to corner both myself and a secretary, stick his hand down his pants, and jerk himself off while asking us questions of sexual nature. This man is 50 years old, has 6 children (one of which is the same age as I), and 3 previous sexual harassment offences (all 3 took place 10 and 12 years ago, before UPS had a sexual harassment policy). I actually wrestled with my conscious before reporting the asshole - I was concerned about his youngest children and his wife!

Bree · 07-07-2002, 08:07 AM

luvluv - I am interested in knowing if you think objectification of women by women is "okay" by your standards.

For example - wearing certain clothing (not slutty clothing) makes me feel strong and sexy. I am extremely proud of my body, even though it may not be up to American standards. I like wearing low-slung jeans and cute shirts when I go out with Jekyll - it makes me feel good knowing that Jekyll is looking at me with admiration and it makes Jekyll feel good knowing other people are thinking she's a mighty lucky lady to have a sexy babe on her arm

.

Is this kind of objectification bad?

07-03-2002, 08:29 PM	#184
Cutter Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,805	Well I don't speak Latin either, but I am a big fan of Yes Minister/Prime Minister. Personally, I'm just waiting for someone who speaks French to come along! (Edited to add: Holy carp! Babelfish gives the clean version!). [ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: Cutter ]</p>

07-04-2002, 05:22 AM	#185
snatchbalance Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CT Posts: 333	never mind, need to think about this a little more. [ July 04, 2002: Message edited by: snatchbalance ]</p>

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07-03-2002, 07:34 PM	#182
Cutter Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,805	The phrase is actually quis custodiet ipsos custodes, not istos and it means 'who guards the guards?'. Mais n'enculons pas des mouches.

07-03-2002, 08:25 PM	#183
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	Hi Cutter, I blame it all on the Internet! I did a google search on "who will watch the watchers" and that came up. And since I don't speak Latin, it looked good to me. Thanks for the correction. cheers, Michael

07-07-2002, 06:19 AM	#188
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	There is a huge difference between unisex and strictly defined sex roles whose boundaries are guarded by an angel with a flaming sword.

07-07-2002, 08:04 AM	#189
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Someone said something like "there is no objectification of women in the workplace nowadays" about three or four pages back - my mind is too cluttered to pinpoint the exact quotation. However, I'm going to give you a little first-hand information: I work for <a href="http://www.ups.com" target="_blank">UPS</a> - a typically male-based company (it is male-based primarily because of the industry - when you think of a UPS driver or package handler, you certainly don't think of a woman). I was recently promoted to management, I am the youngest person ever to hold this position (I am 20 years old). I am the only woman in our state to hold this position. However, my boss (and everyone else) refers to me as "Office Girl" even though my duties do not take place in the office. You'd think that equal work comes with equal pay - but no. The man who had the job before me was paid exactly $733 more [i]per month[i/] for doing the exact same thing. The company has not yet provided me with a good reason as to why I'm paid less than the middle-aged man who held the position previously. To tell the truth, I'm not wanting the money - the prestige and the possibilities of promotion are enough for me. If you think that sexual harassment is dead in the workplace, you're wrong. A few weeks ago my supervisor decided it was entirely appropriate to corner both myself and a secretary, stick his hand down his pants, and jerk himself off while asking us questions of sexual nature. This man is 50 years old, has 6 children (one of which is the same age as I), and 3 previous sexual harassment offences (all 3 took place 10 and 12 years ago, before UPS had a sexual harassment policy). I actually wrestled with my conscious before reporting the asshole - I was concerned about his youngest children and his wife!

07-07-2002, 08:07 AM	#190
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	luvluv - I am interested in knowing if you think objectification of women by women is "okay" by your standards. For example - wearing certain clothing (not slutty clothing) makes me feel strong and sexy. I am extremely proud of my body, even though it may not be up to American standards. I like wearing low-slung jeans and cute shirts when I go out with Jekyll - it makes me feel good knowing that Jekyll is looking at me with admiration and it makes Jekyll feel good knowing other people are thinking she's a mighty lucky lady to have a sexy babe on her arm . Is this kind of objectification bad?

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