Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jo · 08-18-2007, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weltschmerz

By the way, I am a Calvinist so I obviously think that God has revealed Himself generally in such a way that all men know that God exists. It would follow that my position is that atheism is not the default position (and I say this not to start an argument but to state my position so everyone understands where I am coming from).

[Bold inserted by me]

"All men know that God exists": Atheism says otherwise. I for one do not know conclusively that God exists - nor do I care in any real manner. However, that statement you made is incorrect.

"Atheism is not the default position": I agree, its not. Nor is theism. If a default position does exist, its agnosticism as being defined "without knowledge".

Autonemesis · 08-18-2007, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weltschmerz

Is there, in your opinion, a presumption of atheism?

Yes, atheism presumes that if any god exists, there would be some way of ascertaining that fact, that this method or methods would be verifiable by anyone, and that the same methods would work to ascertain the existence of any number of other real objects in the world.

Quote:

If so, what reason(s) are there for maintaining that there is such a presumption, i.e. what rational grounds are there for holding to this position?

Experience.

post tenebras lux · 08-18-2007, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weltschmerz

~ Alexander

By the way, I am a Calvinist so I obviously think that God has revealed Himself generally in such a way that all men know that God exists. It would follow that my position is that atheism is not the default position (and I say this not to start an argument but to state my position so everyone understands where I am coming from).

At what point does your god reveal himself to men? Is it as soon as they pop out of their mother, or is it later in their life?

Before your god reveals himself to them, can they be said to have a natural presumption of atheism?

Gawen · 08-18-2007, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weltschmerz

I am basically asking if there is a presumption of atheism. That is, should atheism be assumed at the start; it is an epistemological question. Some people ask it in the more general sense of, "Is atheism the default position to hold?"

It is the default position. Everyone born is an atheist. But I see this is already covered.

Koyaanisqatsi · 08-20-2007, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Alcyonian If a default position does exist, its agnosticism as being defined "without knowledge".

No, it would have to be "a theism;" without a belief in a god or gods. You can't be born with a belief. Beliefs can only be indoctrinated.

Agnosticism is more than just "without knowledge," whereas Atheism is precisely "without belief in a god or gods."

weltschmerz · 08-20-2007, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by post tenebras lux

At what point does your god reveal himself to men? Is it as soon as they pop out of their mother, or is it later in their life?

Before your god reveals himself to them, can they be said to have a natural presumption of atheism?

Hello,

I believe that God reveals Himself at all points in life by virtue of our createdness. In other words, I believe that God is evident to everyone.

Thanks,

~ Alexander

ughaibu · 08-20-2007, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weltschmerz

I believe that God reveals Himself at all points in life by virtue of our createdness.

As it stands this argument is unsatisfactory by circularity. (Are you Lamont's champion?)

weltschmerz · 08-20-2007, 12:13 PM

Hello,

Your claim that we are born atheists seems dubious at best. Atheism is the denial of God(s), or as you said, the absence of assumptions (which I think is false) with regards to theism. If this is the case, then it would seem that atheism at least minimally involves some volition on the part of sentient beings. Babies don't believe in air, oxygen, life, etc. etc. but it would be a strange claim to say that they "lack belief" in these things. More properly, they have not yet formed the cognitive abilities to form beliefs of any kind yet. After all, they do breathe air and are alive.

With regards to the claim that theism is learned. Your claim, it seems to me, commits the genetic fallacy which faults a position based on a supposed flaw in the origin of the claim itself. It may be that theism is learned and that God created us in such a manner to learn about Him through His created order. It doesn't follow that because theism is learned that it is false or that atheism is the default position.

Thanks for your thoughts,

~ Alexander

weltschmerz · 08-20-2007, 12:13 PM

Hello,

Why do you say that everyone is born an atheist?

Thanks,

~ Alexander

ughaibu · 08-20-2007, 12:14 PM

One can not deny the non-existent. The claim that atheism is a denial of god is implicit question begging.

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08-20-2007, 12:13 PM	#28
weltschmerz Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 43	Hello, Your claim that we are born atheists seems dubious at best. Atheism is the denial of God(s), or as you said, the absence of assumptions (which I think is false) with regards to theism. If this is the case, then it would seem that atheism at least minimally involves some volition on the part of sentient beings. Babies don't believe in air, oxygen, life, etc. etc. but it would be a strange claim to say that they "lack belief" in these things. More properly, they have not yet formed the cognitive abilities to form beliefs of any kind yet. After all, they do breathe air and are alive. With regards to the claim that theism is learned. Your claim, it seems to me, commits the genetic fallacy which faults a position based on a supposed flaw in the origin of the claim itself. It may be that theism is learned and that God created us in such a manner to learn about Him through His created order. It doesn't follow that because theism is learned that it is false or that atheism is the default position. Thanks for your thoughts, ~ Alexander

08-20-2007, 12:14 PM	#30
ughaibu Banned Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Japan Posts: 8,492	One can not deny the non-existent. The claim that atheism is a denial of god is implicit question begging.

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