Freethought & Rationalism Archive

braces_for_impact · 01-23-2003, 10:19 AM

Quote:

There is no human relationship that could bring me more happiness than this.

And that is what is so sad...

Now a thread with Amos and Gemma? I'm out of here...

penumbra · 01-23-2003, 11:09 AM

quote:

"There is no human relationship that could bring me more happiness than this."

Hmmmmm��pre-determination, predestination, self-fulfilling prophecy, maybe even fatalism? Pick your favorite clich� that essentially means � my self-imposed psychological filters will reject or modify any input that does not support my pre-determined conclusion and I will not allow myself objective consideration of any contrary or alternative evidence, arguments, or experiences.

Oh, well, whatever floats your boat��

Sabine Grant · 01-24-2003, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
You appear to know as little about Native American cultures and the history of their tragic defeat at the hands of the Christian Europeans who justified their actions under the Bible-based "Manifest Destiny", as you appear to know about European history.

Did you know that the savage practice of scalping was introduced to the Native Americans by the English?

The Iroquois Confederacy was a nation , which BTW influenced our own constitution. From here: (emphasis mine)

Hiawatha and Deganwidah founded the League of the Iroquois sometime between A.D. 1000 and 1450 under a constitution they called the Kaianerekowa or Great Law of Peace.

[In Agrarian Justice, Thomas Paine] returned once again to the Iroquois, among whom he had learned democracy, when he wrote, "The fact is, that the condition of millions, in every country in Europe, is far worse than if they had been born before civilization began, or had been born among the Indians of North-America at the present day."

After this taste of Indian diplomacy, Franklin became a lifelong champion of the Indian political structure and advocated its use by the Americans....Speaking to the Albany Congress in 1754, Franklin called on the delegates of the various English colonies to unite and emulate the Iroquois League, a call that was not heeded until the Constitution was written three decades later.

And the Iroquois nation was not the only seat of peaceful civilization in America before the Europeans came. Your characterization of Native Americans is right out of 18th and 19th century rhetoric portraying NAs as only savages, deserving to be conquored, even destined to be conquored by White Christian civilization.

What did some of our fine, moral, outstanding Christians (or deists, at least in some cases) say about Native Americans? (sourced from the above site):

From a Washington letter of 1783: Indians have "nothing human except the shape...the gradual extension of our settlements will as certainly cause the savage, as the wolf, to retire; both being beasts of prey, tho' they differ in shape."

George Washington also wrote that Indians "...were wolves and beasts who deserved nothing from the whites but 'total ruin'"

Thomas Jefferson argued that the United States government was obliged "...to pursue [Indians] to extermination, or drive them to new seats beyond our reach" .

Andrew Jackson urged United States troops "...to root out from their 'dens' and kill Indian women and their 'whelps'"

And Andrew Johnson, in a message to Congress, 1867, said "If the savage resists, civilization, with the Ten Commandments in one hand and the sword in the other, demands his immediate execution."

Teddy Roosevelt: "I suppose I should be ashamed to say that I take the Western view of the Indian. I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every ten are, and I shouldn't like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth."

"Discovery gave title to the government by whose subjects...it was made, against all other European governments, which title might be consummated by possession....[D]iscovery gave an exclusive right to extinguish the Indian title of occupancy, either by purchase or by conquest...the Indians were fierce savages...whose subsistence was drawn chiefly from the forest. To leave them in possession of their country, was to leave the country a wilderness." (Supreme Court, Johnson v. McIntosh, 21 US 543, 1823, pgs. 573, 587, 590)

I love the way all those guys expressed their fine, Christian principles! It's a good thing their religion taught them not to rob, rape, steal and murder!

And from here:

In 1851 the Governor of California officially called for the extermination of the Indians in his state. [3, pg.144]

On March 24, 1863, the Rocky Mountain News in Denver ran an editorial titled, "Exterminate Them."

On April 2, 1863, the Santa Fe New Mexican advocated "extermination of the Indians."

In 1867, General William Tecumseh Sherman said:
"We must act with vindictive earnestness against the [Lakotas, known to whites as the Sioux] even to their extermination, men, women and children."

Let me ask you a question: how would you describe the moral differences between the Nazi program for the Jews and the American "program" for the Indians?

Just to let you know that in other threads debating whether or not Washington was a christian, it appears that some atheists claim him as a non christian.... so which is it ?

There is no doubt that one can qualify the fate of Native Americans to be equal to the jewish holocaust.

I can add more water to your well by quoting the still existing claims of the Knights of the KKK using the Bible to support their hatred....there is no limit to human fanaticism and hatred for what is different.

Throughout history there has been a pattern of using God as a justification to extermination of different groups of individuals. However there is a difference between the christians who use God as a justification for crimes and the christians who reject the use of the concept of God to do harm onto others.

It is always fair to not assume that a person who is a christian would defend or justify such criminal actions because he or she is a christian.

beyelzu · 01-24-2003, 11:40 AM

sabine,

The conquistadors dashed babies heads on rocks after baptizing them, thus sending them to heaven.

The problem is that according to Catholic doctrine that was probably the best thing to do, the only way they could realistically expect to get into heaven. Same with torturing someone to confess to their sins, it can be a sound practice according to the doctrine.

01-24-2003, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese
Jesus is my Beloved...I have been called to be the Spouse of Christ.

Unfortunately Christ hasn't been faithful to poor young Gemma. Can you believe that bastard? He seems to think that He can sleep around with anyone simply because He created the universe.

[Edited to remove link]

beyelzu · 01-24-2003, 02:30 PM

atheist in a foxhole,

thats harsh man

funny as hell, but harsh

Sabine Grant · 01-24-2003, 05:11 PM

Atheist in a foxhole... I have spotted a 13 and a 14 year old in a thread in Miscellaneous Discussions. Common decency implies that you could have added a simple warning that the character of this material may not be suitable to minors. Not because it involves caricatures of Christ etc... but because of the pornographic aspect. You probably did not think that thru very well... did you? do not be so surprised as some christians may be tempted to fall for the stereotyping idea that atheists have no morality. Your screen name makes no equivoque as to your position.

I suggest that your post be edited to add a warning or be sent back to where it originated.

Let me also add that I was baited into opening your link as I thought you were presenting a document which pertained to prove that Christ had human relationships including male/female relations. I have filters on my computer so I am not forced fed various porno adds etc... so your method is rather cohercive.

And last but not least, this thread belongs in General Religious Discussions part of the Philosophical Forum.... I do not think I need to say more.

Amie · 01-24-2003, 05:39 PM

atheist_in_foxhole
I think that is ridiculous of you to post something like that to Gemma. How pathetic!

01-24-2003, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie
atheist_in_foxhole
I think that is ridiculous of you to post something like that to Gemma. How pathetic!

Thanks Amie but don't worry about Gemma. It will only shock small minds.

Amie · 01-24-2003, 06:26 PM

yeah I guess sometimes you just gotta consider the source...

speaking of the topic of saints, I just bought a book on the saints. Its actually more like a dictionary of saints. I think St. Jude seems like a pretty cool guy

helping the hopless and all...

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01-23-2003, 11:09 AM	#172
penumbra Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 1,938	quote: "There is no human relationship that could bring me more happiness than this." Hmmmmm��pre-determination, predestination, self-fulfilling prophecy, maybe even fatalism? Pick your favorite clich� that essentially means � my self-imposed psychological filters will reject or modify any input that does not support my pre-determined conclusion and I will not allow myself objective consideration of any contrary or alternative evidence, arguments, or experiences. Oh, well, whatever floats your boat��

01-24-2003, 11:40 AM	#174
beyelzu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: the peach state ga I am a metaphysical naturalist Posts: 2,869	sabine, The conquistadors dashed babies heads on rocks after baptizing them, thus sending them to heaven. The problem is that according to Catholic doctrine that was probably the best thing to do, the only way they could realistically expect to get into heaven. Same with torturing someone to confess to their sins, it can be a sound practice according to the doctrine.

01-24-2003, 02:30 PM	#176
beyelzu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: the peach state ga I am a metaphysical naturalist Posts: 2,869	atheist in a foxhole, thats harsh man funny as hell, but harsh

01-24-2003, 05:11 PM	#177
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	Atheist in a foxhole... I have spotted a 13 and a 14 year old in a thread in Miscellaneous Discussions. Common decency implies that you could have added a simple warning that the character of this material may not be suitable to minors. Not because it involves caricatures of Christ etc... but because of the pornographic aspect. You probably did not think that thru very well... did you? do not be so surprised as some christians may be tempted to fall for the stereotyping idea that atheists have no morality. Your screen name makes no equivoque as to your position. I suggest that your post be edited to add a warning or be sent back to where it originated. Let me also add that I was baited into opening your link as I thought you were presenting a document which pertained to prove that Christ had human relationships including male/female relations. I have filters on my computer so I am not forced fed various porno adds etc... so your method is rather cohercive. And last but not least, this thread belongs in General Religious Discussions part of the Philosophical Forum.... I do not think I need to say more.

01-24-2003, 05:39 PM	#178
Amie Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: New York Posts: 1,626	atheist_in_foxhole I think that is ridiculous of you to post something like that to Gemma. How pathetic!

01-24-2003, 06:26 PM	#180
Amie Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: New York Posts: 1,626	yeah I guess sometimes you just gotta consider the source... speaking of the topic of saints, I just bought a book on the saints. Its actually more like a dictionary of saints. I think St. Jude seems like a pretty cool guy helping the hopless and all...

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