Viti

I also want to point out that there is not just one choice involved here. Each actress must make a series of choices before ending up in front of a camera.

1. At some point she decided that nudity was okay
2. At some point she decided that nudity on film was okay (as opposed to still photography for magazines or the Internet)
3. At some point she decided that sexual contact with another person was okay

Nobody just suddenly finds themselves naked in a porn shoot. How did she meet the producer? How did she agree to become involved? Why didn't she just say "not for me" and walk out?

Now, at any time she could have chosen NOT to move forward...anything from a polite "No thank you" to "If any part of another person's body touches me they aren't getting it back"

luvluv

99Percent:

Do you really realize what you are saying when you say that anything short of violence in getting someone to perform a sexual act is okay?

So you would have no problem with me waiting around outside an abuse/trauma center for young girls who have been sexually assaulted throughout their lives, searching for the emotionally weakest girl I could find who was of age and who was desperate for money, playing off her insecurities and her need for cash, and pressuring her into having sex with me in degrading ways that made her even more emotionally damaged?

viscousmemories:

I understand that there are degrading jobs, but can you understand that there are DEGREES of degredation. Can you agree that there are some jobs so degrading that doing them should be unacceptable? All jobs, at certain times, are drags. But there are some jobs which are essentially emotionally destructive, and for which the risk of working them is so high that no one should support anyone in doing so. If it was pretty well established that working any job was so devestating that it could only be managed with a lot of drug use, and it was accompanied by suicide attempts and emotional baggage far in excess of what occurs in the standard population, and if the employees who work for that industry were targeted because of their emotional and financial desperation, and if these jobs were not in some sense necessary (in other words, one would exclude the police and military) then I would consider it immoral to FINANCE such an endeavor, or to gratify myself with the work of such an endeavor.

You all seem to be admitting that there are girls in these movies who are hurting and being exploited, and essentially the verdict seems to be that you just don't care. Is that accurate?

Well, if you're going to decide not to care about how your actions affect the well-being of other people, you can get rid of a lot of your anxieties!! In fact, I'd say not caring about other people would be the absolute best way to cure all anxieties! I would agree that you seem to have objected to pornography for the wrong reasons, but are you open to the possibility that their might be GOOD reasons for objecting to pornography?

dangin:

Porn and sex are two different things. Sex could get along quite nicely without widely-distrubuted pornography. In fact, it would probably be happening more often without widely-distributed pornography.

I appreciate that a lot of you folks nearly worship sex. It seems like a strange god to me, but it's your decision. However, my contention has nothing to do with sex, per se. It is about an industry which preys upon the weakest, most defenseless young women they can find, intent upon exploiting their desperate situations for money, and which is indifferent towards the pain it causes these women.

Barney Gumble:

Well, one of us is deifying the sex act. I'll leave it to you to figure out which one of is it is.

In the meantime, I think I'll continue our discussion about PORNOGRAPHY, not sex. No one here said anything about banning sex, or anything against sex. None of you are talking about the issues I've raised AT ALL.

My question was whether or not you thought it was moral to masterbate to the image of an exploited woman who is in the process of damaging herself emotionally? Would you masterbate to the image of Annabelle again, despite the fact that you are now aware of the consequences her decision to star in porn has made in her life? And would you consider that a morally justifiable position? And how would that be different from you, yourself, going out and trying to find the most emotionally damaged and susceptible 18 year old girl you could find to pressure her into sex for money? Would you consider that moral?

I don't care how much sex you guys have. Live it up, for goodness sakes. This is not a thread about promiscuous sex or unmarried sex. It is a thread about pornography. Can we stop with all the red herrings now?

Lady Shea:

The point is that the producers purposely pick girls who, for emotional and financial reasons, are the LEAST CAPABLE of asserting themselves and walking away. They are purposely preying on weak people and making them weaker in the process. Do you think that is moral?

FINALLY:

I asked a simple straight-forward question which has yet to receive an answer:

Would you now consider it to be okay to masterbate to the image of Annabelle, the girl from the special who has suffered multiple nervous breakdowns and multiple suicide attempts, as a result of her participation in the porn industry. Do you think it is morally acceptable to use her images, the capturing of which served to break her down to dangerous degrees emotionally, to gratify yourself with? Is anyone going to answer this question?

christ-on-a-stick

Actually I thought I did answer this question already but perhaps it got lost in the shuffle.

No, personally I would not feel okay about it. (BTW it's Belladonna not Annabelle).

However, I fail to see exactly how this one example leads to....anything.

I am going have to re-read your post again to reply more but suffice it say for the moment that I feel we are going 'round in circles here.... and hey, if you want to talk red herrings , WTF is this?
Where exactly in ANY of these people's posts has ANYONE said that they "just don't care" about women who are hurting or exploited???

Argh! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I would really like to respond to some of your other comments but I just don't know if I have it in me..... perhaps some of the posters with more stamina can have a crack at it.

I feel that we are at something of an impasse in this discussion when clearly we see two different realities - yours includes belief in such ineffable things as "souls" and how they can supposedly be damaged. My reality doesn't... so perhaps I will bow out here. Carry on though!

luvluv

coas:

Okay, well my overall point was that there is no way to tell which girls are in such straits and which ones aren't. But we can assume, since the porn producers are known for seeking out such women, that many of the women in these productions will be in such a desperate condition. Given that this is the case, I don't see how a person could morally justify watching pornography.

The question was asked more of the men on this thread, though. Specifically the ones who feel there is nothing wrong with pornography and who are likely to use it.

I was using the term "souls" euphemistically to refer to their emotional states, or their psyches. (That's all I think the term means, anyway).

Harumi

So what do you propose to be the solution? If you dislike it so much, try and solve it for crying out loud! We'll listen...try to anyways.

christ-on-a-stick

luvluv,
Ah... perhaps this is where we come to the impasse.

I disagree completely. I CAN'T assume, because my up-close-and-personal experience does not bear out that assumption - that many of the women are in "desperate condition", or being exploited.

Some? Yes, certainly. I have interacted with them. It bothered me. Please don't presume to assume that I "don't care" about those women regardless of my overall position on pornography.

Many? That is a pretty vaguely defined term. I get the impression that you really believe it is *MOST* women - please correct me if I am wrong.
Thanks for the clarification.

Viti

So, which producer/company was Belladonna with? Its easy to boycott all of their movies.

Also, which Belladonna are we discussing? Ineternet Adult Film Database has several listed

One born in Utah, made 114 movies between 2000-2002 21 yrs old

One has no personal data and made 2 movies in 1999

One was active in 1988-1989 made 21 movies

One has made 2 movies in 20001-2002 under Sabrina Belladonna

Jamie_L

luvluv has a point, and it's something that used to trouble me when I was a regular viewer of pornography. I always wondered if those involved were healthy and willing or perhaps exactly the opposite.

It seems to me that because of the stigma of pornography, there's not much recourse for those who get into trouble in the industry with a bad producer/studio. Certainly politicians aren't willing to try to figure out reasonable regulation to help stop that sort of thing. No politician wants to be accused of "condoning pornography" by pushing agendas that protect those involved in it (unless that agenda just includes ending pornography).

The stigma further aggravates the difficulty for abused/exploited actors/actresses from seeking help. Publicly standing up and saying "I need help" entails saying "I work as a porn actor/actress", which they may not want to do. Especially if they are already in a weakened emotional state from some exploitive practice.

Imagine if pornography was a perfectly acceptable occupation, with recognized actor's unions looking out for their membership, and local and state agencies that you could go to with grievances. More importantly, imagine if you could go to the existing government agencies for help, say you are a porn actor/actress, and not have them immediately dismiss you based on some prejudice.

I may be way off base here, but I think removing the stigma from the industry might go a long way towards helping root out abuse.

Just a thought.

Jamie

christ-on-a-stick

Lady,

The one on the PrimeTime special is the one from Utah - approx 21 years of age now. She's done a LOT in the past few years.

beastmaster

I agree but I doubt that would be acceptable to luvluv. His real objection is his belief that porn is inherently morally destructive, inevitably turning its actors and actresses into emotional basketcases or selfish a-holes. He thinks porn *should* be stigmatized, unless he wants to correct me.