Dr Rick

I would say that the author might benefit from taking a freshman-level course in logic.

That living things are the products of evolution does not allow us to conclude that every human thought and action has an evolutionary explanation or is driven by reproductive desires

Humans meditate, ski, paint, rob, write, drive, massage, parachute, speed, hum, and fiddle; you would be hard-pressed to find an evolutionary explanation for all of the things that we do.

Rick

Dr Rick

Please consider reading some of the studies I have posted, and provide any that you think might refute the conclusion that human rape is about power, anger, and aggression.

What scientific evidence, and not just "arm-chair" contemplation, have shown that human rape has anything to do with reproduction?

Rick

pz

I definitely do not think males are more sexual than females.

Most sex offenders are males because a) they may be more aggressive, and b) issues of plumbing make it a bit more difficult for women to compel men to perform.

Men also rape men. The reproductive benefit of that is rather elusive.

pz

No.

You still aren't getting it. Evolution is not the same as natural selection. Every feature that is the product of natural selection must confer a heritable benefit on carriers. However, not every feature of a species is necessarily heritable nor is it necessarily the product of natural selection.Individuals of some species do routinely reproduce by means of 'rape', or by insemination without the cooperation of the female. The conditions where that occurs correspond very poorly to the human condition.

"Lower" animals that 'rape' are not deranged, if that is the typical method of reproduction.

People who rape are deranged. It is not a reliable long-term strategy for reproduction. That it happens frequently is not an argument that it is a good strategy, or that it is heritable. If it were, we'd have to start talking about shoplifting genes that arose as a foraging strategy.

Tara

yes, men rape men... and children. I will read Rick's above-posted studies...

but the other angle I was curious about remains: what about rape in other species? Scorpionflies, mallard ducks, White-cheeked pintails for example. I'll find references.

Tara

That, of course, is true. I did know that. Was I implying differently by asking whether rape was "beneficial" in the past? I guess so. Or I guess that was the main fallacy in the above creationist article, which I should ahve recognized. I meant to still question whether rape is possibly a naturally selected trait. It is "heritable" though, correct? Mental illness is "heritable".

Although, I am pretty convinced, after more consideration, that it's a lousy means of reproduction so would have no basis for being naturally selected trait...

I admittedly (as I'm sure is obvious) not well read on evolution, my exposure to it amounts to biology in the 9th grade. Agh... I was raised very christian, so never payed the idea much attention... it's a very recent interest, thanks for bearing w/ me.

Jesse

Dr Rick:
I don't think so; all human behavoural explanations aren't either creationist or Darwinian.

GFA:
Really? Biological human beings are sometimes the result of something *other* than the evolved interaction between their genes and their environment?

What is this amazing mechanism im missing?

I haven't read this whole thread, but it seems like you're supporting the false idea of "adaptationism" here, namely the view that every feature of an organism must be a product of selective forces. But hardly any scientists believe this anymore--for example, genetic drift can cause differences between populations in the absence of selection. Also, maybe more importantly, there are plenty of spandrels, features of an organism which are just a side-effect of the design of other adaptive traits but which may have no adaptive value in themselves (or they may be co-opted for some adaptive purpose, a process that is sometimes called 'exaptation'). For example, if we're talking about sexual behaviors, it's quite possible that masturbation has no adaptive value of its own, and that it's just a side-effect of the fact that the sexual organs are designed to respond pleasurably to friction, which has an adaptive value in making animals more likely to desire sex. Likewise, there are various adaptive reasons that animals a) enjoy sex, and b) are capable of violence towards others of their own kind. This would be enough to insure that rape would occasionally occur, even if it has no adaptive value at all.

I'm not saying that this is, in fact, the correct explanation for why rape exists. I'm just saying that your incredulous reaction to the claim that some behaviors may have no Darwinian explanation suggests a shallow understanding of Darwinian theory.

God Fearing Atheist

As I already pointed out, pz, rape seems to require certain environmental triggers.

Why is it that the relation between low male SES and rape is both negative and linear?

Why is there some evidence that men subject to more frequenct sexual rejection are more often rapists?

Why is there a correlation between a fatherless household and rape in men?

Its precisely *because* these men are *unable* to copulate consentually, or would have in the past, that they go into rape-mode. The male scorpionfly, for example, perfers to give its potential mate a gift, to which she almost always responds favorably. Its only when they lack this gift that they force sex.

-GFA

God Fearing Atheist

No. I presented the two most likely cases because the others (including the ones you mentioned, and in addition to mutation-selection balance, evolutionarily novel environments, and so forth) can easily be ruled out by the evidence.

In fact, in general, its much more likely that some behavioral trait *isnt* adaptive, and is instead a by-product. Although I dont think you can conclusivly say either way as of yet, I would bet it will turn out to be adaptive.

-GFA

God Fearing Atheist

You'll note that reproductive aged females are vastly overrepresented in rape statistics, that they are more likely to face penile-vagina intercourse, that they are more likely to take the rapists ejaculate....