HelenM

Yes, I think so

So I got something right today then!

love
Helen

Arrowman

It is imho generally true that people who are insecure in their beliefs or position will very likely shout, or resort to abuse when confronted with a convincing counter-argument that they cannot rebut.

The converse, however, is not necessarily true. A person who shouts, or resorts to abuse in a debate may well be (but not necessarily) avoiding the fact that they cannot rebut an argument. But it does not necessarily follow that they are insecure in their position or beliefs.

It bugs me when someone from either "side" (theist or atheist) responds to shouting or abuse (real or perceived) with the barb "you must be real insecure in your beliefs". I've said that to atheists before, and I'll say it to a theist now.

Now (before Gurdur jumps on me for "missing the point" ) - that is not exactly the argument that Theist Gal is making here; she is talking about "tolerance" as opposed to "shouting/abuse". I do think the two subjects are related, because very often people will make a false connection between "abuse" and "intolerance" - in other words "you are being abusive to me, therefore you are intolerant of my beliefs". I believe that this is what Theist Gal is doing here - interpreting abuse from some people (including me, if you like, although I don't think I've gone beyond "snideness" ) as "intolerance" and thence to "insecurity". So I think my comments about "abuse" above are relevant.

To the extent that one can genuinely distinguish "intolerance" from "abuse" (admittedly a hard thing to do), then I would say - if a person is being genuinely intolerant (abusive or not) then it does not necessarily follow that they are insecure in their own beliefs. In fact, quite the reverse imho - only those who are very secure in their belief that they are right, and everyone else is wrong, are likely to adopt a position of intolerance.

In summary, particularly in relation to myself but probably others here also - Theist Gal:
- As you may have noticed, I disagree with your beliefs.
- As you may have noticed, I have a particular dislike for some of your beliefs, in particular your allegiance to the RCC which is an organisation I hold in some contempt more than many other Christian churches.
- I have expressed that position quite strongly, and sometimes with the use of smart cracks and in terms you might wish to characterise as "rude" or "abusive". I would disagree with the latter but that is irrelevant here.
- I reject your implicit assertion that this is "intolerance" on my part. Disagreement is not intolerance. Even a heartfelt wish that the RCC and its ilk will wither and die with the passing of time and the increase in reason in the world, is not intolerance.
- Further, I reject your assertion that my disagreement with you, even if it were intolerance, in some way demonstrates an insecurity on my part in my own beliefs.

You may or may not choose to accept that I am not intolerant and/or insecure. But even if I were, you are objectively and logically incorrect when you assert that this would demonstrate insecurity on my part.

Arrowman

Gurdur: It'll take me a couple of days to find the time to do a proper reply to your posts. I'll get back to you.

avagoodweegend.

windsofchange

Oh well, I think I'll just give up on this board (again!). I've tried to be nice and friendly, and wound up being called a "bitch" when I dared to suggest that tolerance was a sign of security in one's beliefs.

Now I don't mind being called a bitch when I ACT like a bitch, but when I'm trying to be nice ... well, all I can say is, would you say that to my face if I were in the room with you, saying the things I've said here? If you would, then I don't care for your company; if you wouldn't, then why would you say it here?

Mad Kally

well, all I can say is, would you say that to my face if I were in the room with you, saying the things I've said here?

I would say that to anyone with an attitude like yours. It's all part of the insecure evil atheist conspiracy.

God is the only childhood myth carried over into adulthood (TM)

Love,
Kally A proud, secure godless heathen.
Bye bye..

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: Mad Kally ]</p>

Metacrock

I was an atheist and became a Christian. If you think that doens't happen you are very naive. But say, didn't you know atheist gal? She was the real thing (of course I'm sure those Calvinist atheists wont think so)

Metacrock

The Calvinist atheists strike again! "She was never among us for she went out from us" (atheist version of 1st John 4)

Metacrock

Why does it threaten you so? Surely you don't believe that popularity makes one right. Surely you don't believe that it matters what she thinks? Why be threatened by it? You take the line that no one could possibly change her mind, or some to see things differently from you, that's the mark of a true bigot. And a Calvinist. those Calivnist atheists are all over the place.

Metacrock

Three stooges website? Where are these Stooges? They are geniuses!!! Give URL.

Mad Kally

==&gt;Meta to ManM: You take the line that no one could possibly change her mind, or some to see things differently from you, that's the mark of a true bigot.

==&gt;Kally to Meta: ManM is a Christian.