Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sabine Grant · 11-21-2002, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vesica:
EVEN WORSE, what if the Pro-lifers continue to rant at the top of thier lungs and we stay silent??

Just a thought.....One of the women's groups at my college set up a table in the student union and encouraged students to make 'Thank You' cards for two of our local health centers that provided abortions. I liked the emphasis on letting supportive voices be heard to. I encourage all that feel strongly about this issue to take a few moments and call or write to providers in your area and thank them for putting up with all the crap they do so we can all excersise our right to chose. How awful if the only feedback they got was from the Pro-lifers!

I am more concerned for the welfare of the women who chose to have an abortion than the welfare of the health clinics. Are they providing post abortion counseling and simple things such as a drive home, follow up on the physical recovery from the various procedures, detection of PAS symptoms etc...I know of crisis pregnancy centers who provide post abortion counseling. Maybe some of those students could offer a volunteer force to the health clinics to support the woman during and after her abortion.

brighid · 11-22-2002, 04:14 AM

Sabine,

Post abortion counseling is available to women and I believe (but I will double check) Planned Parenthood provides post-abortion counseling, as well as many other services even if 83% of PP don't provide abortion services.

However, I do not see how failing to provide post-abortion counseling has any bearing on a woman legally obtaining an abortion. I think the mystique of abortion and the women who choose to have one, as well as the societally imposed shame contribute far greater to the post abortion psychology then the actual abortion does.

My concern is for women before, during and after their ability to conceive. Sweden has 2.9% teenage pregnancy rate. I am not even sure there is a single county in the US that has a rate this low. Birth control, thorough sexual education, easy access to health care, affordable day care, instilling the idea that people should not have children they can't afford, that every child should be wanted and the equal human rights of men and women would do FAR more to prevent unwanted pregnancies, and thereby decrease the number of abortions then any Pro-Life campaign ever will.

Prevention and lessening of the reasons why millions of women, across every social, economic, religious and racial group find themselves faced with a situation where the best, and sometimes only choice is abortion is what ALL people should be concerned with. How absolutely pathetic that women are put in the position to choose between their own lives, health and futures and continuing a pregnancy. What is even worse is that the vast majority of Pro-Life/Conservative people in the US don't give a damn about those very real conditions, but are more concerned about punishing women because they are faced with that reality.

Brighid

Vesica · 11-22-2002, 10:07 AM

I am concerned about too....I was just saying it gets posted again and again how these workers are at times risking thier lives to provide these services.....We could at least day thanks...Perhaps thanks that there are people willing to work the system, even if it does need some reforms??

brighid · 11-22-2002, 12:05 PM

I think taking time out to thank people is a good idea, especially ones who are endangered by fanatics who espouse Pro-Life mantras and yet murder men and women in the name of protecting the unborn.

B

simian · 11-22-2002, 12:46 PM

This makes a good place to insert a comment I have been wanting to make in this thread for quite some time. Why call the anti-choice group "pro-life"? They do not (by and large) oppose the death penalty. With the exception of some small set of groups, none of these anti-choice groups will make any stand against the death penalty. Likewise they will take no stance againt war, or for vaccinations, or damn near any other subject that might actually reflect a "pro-life" stance. They are anti-choice pure and simple.

Very, very seldom will you hear the anti-choice groups speak against violence and even murder. I doubt they would help the police capture a murder who killed an abortion provider if they knew where the murderer was.

We have home-grown terrorism (shooting doctors, bombing clinics, shooting into clinics) going on, but I seriously doubt these groups will ever be labeled by the government as terrorists, let alone any actual action taken against them.

I am not saying there are no pro-lifers in the anti-choice movements, but that they are the minority (or very silent majority).

Simian

Sabine Grant · 11-22-2002, 01:04 PM

PAS is unfortunatly real and not the product of a "guilt trip". My personal recovery from multiple abortions was motivated by PAS counseling. Which also gave me the incentive to be trained in that field.

That the right to choose prevails is one thing... but that we minimize the psychological and physiological impact of an abortion is in my sense irresponsible.

11-22-2002, 01:23 PM

<a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_post.htm" target="_blank">Article on PAS</a>

Sabine, I do not mean to minimize your personal experience with this. If you truly needed some help and received it thru counseling, that's great.

But I think your statement suggesting that abortion involves serious long-term psychological harm in a significant number of cases is, well, bunk.

Vorkosigan · 11-22-2002, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by brighid:
 Sweden has 2.9% teenage pregnancy rate. I am not even sure there is a single county in the US that has a rate this low.

Curious, I looked it up. Accord to <a href="http://www.plannedparenthood.org/library/TEEN-PREGNANCY/Reducing.html" target="_blank"> Planned Parenthood</a>, it is 97 per thousand, or 9.7%. Ouch! Of course, the Netherlands weigh in at 0.69%. That's loooowww. But sex-ed starts in Preschool there.

<a href="http://www.familycentre.com/teenage_pregnancy_statistics.htm" target="_blank">This table</a> gives slightly different numbers than the Planned Parenthood figure. Note that Japan is lowest here.

Vorkosigan

Sabine Grant · 11-23-2002, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jagged Little Pill:
<a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_post.htm" target="_blank">Article on PAS</a>

Sabine, I do not mean to minimize your personal experience with this. If you truly needed some help and received it thru counseling, that's great.

But I think your statement suggesting that abortion involves serious long-term psychological harm in a significant number of cases is, well, bunk.

My statement suggests that we must be prepared to deal with PAS rather than assume it is non existant. If health Clinics provide abortions, then I expect that provisions are made to provide PAS when necessary. However, PAS manifests itself sometime years after the fact. But if accurate information on what to " watch for" is given in health clinics ( no different that giving post op information to a patient on what they may expect and resources they have available), it will help the woman deal with a potential emotional or psychological "side effect".
The facts are that any abortion is a surgical procedure. It involves possible complications. The woman becomes a patient. She deserves every valuable resource for full recovery.
Stating that all pro lifers or anti choice individuals want to punish the woman who had an abortion does not reflect the reality of crisis pregnancy centers who provide post abortion counseling. At least that is not my personal experience. I never worked with co counselors who had the goal to punish any woman. Their concern was to promote healing in the women who found themselves sort of abandonned by the system and basicaly ignored when showing signs of distress.

( I guess by the very same people who deny the existence of post abortion trauma). In fact why would they pick up the pieces if they believe there are no pieces to pick up?. I worked with caring and concerned individuals who in no way culpabilized the choice of a woman. Again generalization can really deny the contribution a minority gives to women.

babelfish · 11-24-2002, 07:57 AM

It's wonderful to know that there are groups who counsel women experiencing PAS. In the article provided by Jagged Little Pill, the statistics show that there is a very real need for this type of service.

I just find it a bit curious, though, that the same people who would look the other way at or even openly advocate the killing of abortion providers, can show such compassion toward the actual perpetrators of the "crime" of abortion - the women who obtain the abortions. If abortion really is no different from the murder of a child, why are women who murder their children thrown into jail, while women who obtain abortions are counseled and treated with compassion?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

11-22-2002, 04:14 AM	#52
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	Sabine, Post abortion counseling is available to women and I believe (but I will double check) Planned Parenthood provides post-abortion counseling, as well as many other services even if 83% of PP don't provide abortion services. However, I do not see how failing to provide post-abortion counseling has any bearing on a woman legally obtaining an abortion. I think the mystique of abortion and the women who choose to have one, as well as the societally imposed shame contribute far greater to the post abortion psychology then the actual abortion does. My concern is for women before, during and after their ability to conceive. Sweden has 2.9% teenage pregnancy rate. I am not even sure there is a single county in the US that has a rate this low. Birth control, thorough sexual education, easy access to health care, affordable day care, instilling the idea that people should not have children they can't afford, that every child should be wanted and the equal human rights of men and women would do FAR more to prevent unwanted pregnancies, and thereby decrease the number of abortions then any Pro-Life campaign ever will. Prevention and lessening of the reasons why millions of women, across every social, economic, religious and racial group find themselves faced with a situation where the best, and sometimes only choice is abortion is what ALL people should be concerned with. How absolutely pathetic that women are put in the position to choose between their own lives, health and futures and continuing a pregnancy. What is even worse is that the vast majority of Pro-Life/Conservative people in the US don't give a damn about those very real conditions, but are more concerned about punishing women because they are faced with that reality. Brighid

11-22-2002, 10:07 AM	#53
Vesica Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sunny FLA USA Posts: 212	I am concerned about too....I was just saying it gets posted again and again how these workers are at times risking thier lives to provide these services.....We could at least day thanks...Perhaps thanks that there are people willing to work the system, even if it does need some reforms??

11-22-2002, 12:05 PM	#54
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	I think taking time out to thank people is a good idea, especially ones who are endangered by fanatics who espouse Pro-Life mantras and yet murder men and women in the name of protecting the unborn. B

11-22-2002, 12:46 PM	#55
simian Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 1,924	This makes a good place to insert a comment I have been wanting to make in this thread for quite some time. Why call the anti-choice group "pro-life"? They do not (by and large) oppose the death penalty. With the exception of some small set of groups, none of these anti-choice groups will make any stand against the death penalty. Likewise they will take no stance againt war, or for vaccinations, or damn near any other subject that might actually reflect a "pro-life" stance. They are anti-choice pure and simple. Very, very seldom will you hear the anti-choice groups speak against violence and even murder. I doubt they would help the police capture a murder who killed an abortion provider if they knew where the murderer was. We have home-grown terrorism (shooting doctors, bombing clinics, shooting into clinics) going on, but I seriously doubt these groups will ever be labeled by the government as terrorists, let alone any actual action taken against them. I am not saying there are no pro-lifers in the anti-choice movements, but that they are the minority (or very silent majority). Simian

11-22-2002, 01:04 PM	#56
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	PAS is unfortunatly real and not the product of a "guilt trip". My personal recovery from multiple abortions was motivated by PAS counseling. Which also gave me the incentive to be trained in that field. That the right to choose prevails is one thing... but that we minimize the psychological and physiological impact of an abortion is in my sense irresponsible.

11-22-2002, 01:23 PM	#57
Jagged Guest Posts: n/a	<a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_post.htm" target="_blank">Article on PAS</a> Sabine, I do not mean to minimize your personal experience with this. If you truly needed some help and received it thru counseling, that's great. But I think your statement suggesting that abortion involves serious long-term psychological harm in a significant number of cases is, well, bunk.

11-24-2002, 07:57 AM	#60
babelfish Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Augusta, Maine, USA Posts: 2,046	It's wonderful to know that there are groups who counsel women experiencing PAS. In the article provided by Jagged Little Pill, the statistics show that there is a very real need for this type of service. I just find it a bit curious, though, that the same people who would look the other way at or even openly advocate the killing of abortion providers, can show such compassion toward the actual perpetrators of the "crime" of abortion - the women who obtain the abortions. If abortion really is no different from the murder of a child, why are women who murder their children thrown into jail, while women who obtain abortions are counseled and treated with compassion?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.