Treacle Worshipper

I've been following this thread with interest, but the one point that's struck me is the discussion of fear. It worries me that millions of women are spending their lives terrified of rape when, actually, the chances of being raped are pretty slim - non-existent compared to some of the risks we take every day.

I think it's partially growing up in Britain. Women are taught to look out for themselves & self-defence classes are easily accessible, but there isn't a culture of fear. The only times when that grows up is when there is known to be a serial rapist in the area - something that happened when I was very small with the Yorkshire Ripper case. I was too young to know what was going on, but I knew people were scared. But otherwise, women go about their business as normal & without being told "be careful, you might get raped" every verse end.

The other reason that this concerns me is that I have recently started using a wheelchair, and this makes me feel more vulnerable. I'm very aware of how easy it is for someone to control my movements - all those helpful people who come up behind me without warning, say "I'll just give you a push, dear" and before you know it I'm far too close to the kerb for safety. I know how easy it would be for someone to attack me, and I know I'm visibly more vulnerable because I'm in a chair - something which makes me a more likely target. (I'm more worried about being mugged than anything else.)

I guess I can see how fear is easy to come by, but I don't see why so much fear is necessary.

TW

[Edit: Woohoo! Veteran User!]

Treacle Worshipper

Originally posted by nermal
The California law, AFAIK, can only be used to prosecute men who have had sex with drunk women. If both are drunk, no matter; he has raped her. If only he is drunk, and she entices him, oh, well.
Apparantly, the California legislature feels that women are somehow mentally deficient where alcohol is involved, but the men can handle it. Seems terribly sexist to me, and were I a woman, I'd take offence.

With regard to this, a law to make a man guilty of rape if he had sex with a woman who'd drunk any alcohol was recently discussed in Britain. I find it personally offensive that someone would consider me incapable of consent after one glass of wine - or 5 pints of Guinness, for that matter. See here, paragraphs 9-13.

TW

Queen of Swords

I read about a veteran of the Korean war who lost both his legs and had to use a wheelchair; he developed self-defence techniques that people could use in that situation. For example, he modified the arm rests of his chair so that he could yank them loose fast and use them as clubs. And in a dangerous situation (eg. a mugging), he would try to get the mugger to bend over him, at which point he'd drive the wheelchair into the mugger and get the guy on the ground. He knew that no court was likely to convict a handicapped person who beat up a mugger.

Enai

This latecomer thinks that nobody deserves to be raped, period. It's because the intent of the laws is to protect everyone from harm, even criminals. I simply don't see a single reason why rape, torture and murder should be less illegal behind bars than outside. After all, putting criminals into an environment that's even more violent than where they first committed their crime will definitely not rehabilitate them. It will instead make them more vicious. It is the intent of any sensible penitary (?) system to release the inmates into a life as law-abiding citizens, isn't it?
Even if the criminals were all to stay in prison for life, allowing them to be raped would be highly immoral. If you disagree, consider this: if the rape were to be carried out by the guards, instead of only being allowed by inaction, would this make it a crime? If so, what's the difference and why isn't it a crime if it's being committed by an already-convicted criminal instead of a (hopefully up to then law-abiding) guard?

Enai

Treacle Worshipper

Wow! Cool! I have also noted that my head is on a level with most people's groins <very evil grin>

TW

Bree

Perhaps your country has different statistics on rape - but in this country one women in five is a victim. That's a lot of women. To me, that kind of statistic justifies the fears that many women have.

Fear is necessary. How many times have I heard a woman say "if I had just trusted my gut, I would have never been attacked?" When you stop thinking that there is real danger out there, that's when you're in the worst trouble.

Edited to add: I wonder why men are the usual people saying that rape is a nearly non-existant crime (I've asked this question on three message boards so far and this seems to be a trend). Maybe it's because they aren't usually targets?

Amen-Moses

Or could it be that even if the woman is the instigator it is always the man who is accused?

I've never heard of a case where a man waking up next to a strange female after a drink binge has accused her of rape, have you?

Amen-Moses

Daleth

Frankly, I do take offense. And it makes absolutely no sense if both people are stupid drunk and the woman is supposed to be incapable of giving consent, the man's still supposed to be capable of understanding that her "yes" doesn't mean yes because of the circumstance. NY law doesn't contain anything explicit to this effect, but the law would bear similar interpretation in the case of a guy encouraging a date to get drunk so she's less likely to resist. I think that's going far enough.

Point taken. I still think it's important to let people know what the stats represent, but we've covered that. This still leaves situations like what happened to me open. I guess it falls loosely into the (incompleted) date rape category, although there was no date. (I can't remember why we were sharing a bed that afternoon, but it was a midday nap.) A woman in that position could have felt frightened enough to react violently. If I had, that day which is a total non-event in my life could have become something huge. Finally, I bring up less violent situations like this because earlier on we were talking in term of ALWAYS and NEVER, I didn't like the use of absolutes, and situations like this are an easy way to explain why. Yeah, lazy, I know.

Daleth

What Ed and I were just discussing is that the 1 in 5 statistic (or the 1 in 10 depending on the source) includes an interpretation of rape that is in some cases so watered down that I'd think women who suffered truly horrific rapes would take offense. Imagine calling it rape if I go out drinking with the man I've lived with for 10 years and then we come home and have sex. Calling that rape is plain wrong (yet as I said, I understand the intent of the law). Again, then statistics include things like this. Lots and lots of things like this. The statistics were designed to raise awareness, and have the side effect of increasing fear to a level that doesn't match the actual risk.

Ed was saying that in some cases the definition is so watered down as to make it meaningless and Treacle was saying that the risk of rape compared to other risks was small. Neither was saing rape is a non-existant crime.

Jackalope

I dunno about you, but I'm developing enormous arms from pushing myself around. Or, as my doctor put it, "Awesome extensors." You're actually in a great position to "grab, twist and pull" if you ever need to. Plus, I keep my cane attached to my chair with clips (they're actually broom clips meant for janitorial closets). I can use that to wail on anyone who grabs me.

In general, people here in California will ask if you need help before they try and push you, so I haven't had much problem with someone just grabbing the back of my wheelchair and giving me a shove. And especially in Berkeley, there are an inordinately large number of very cranky crips who will run over toes and even pin someone to the wall with their wheelchair if messed with. I actually feel less vulnerable in the wheelchair than I did staggering along with my cane or walker, because I'm not as easy to knock down when I'm in the chair. And I can move a lot faster (I've been practicing wheelies and spin turns in the new chair). If you haven't had the center of gravity in your chair adjusted for your weight, you may be less agile than you could be.

(Oh, and join the wheelchair junkie message board, please. There are a total of three atheists there, and the fundies of various stripes are making me crazy. Especially the catholic who thinks that saying the rosary every day is what made his relapsing-remitting MS improve.)