Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Yellum Notnef · 03-22-2003, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly

Can atheists act agains the character and nature of a God whose existence they deny? Yes. Just like theists can do. When they go against that absolute standard they are sinning, even if they don't want to admit that the standard of God's nature and character exists.

It's not an issue of not wanting to admit to anything. I'd have to lie in order to admit that your god even exists nevermind admitting to it's character and nature.

Magus55 · 03-22-2003, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by QueenofSwords
Originally posted by spurly
For example. God is a giver of life, so taking the life of another person would be a sin.

Unless God orders you to do so in the Old Testament, in which case it's OK to kill your child, kill pregnant women, kill male infants and so on.

God is a God who is True. So deception and dishonesty of any kind is a sin.

Unless you're Abraham or Isaac, in which case it's OK to say that your wife is your sister instead. I wonder if it would be a sin, if you were in a World War II situation and there are Jews hiding in your attic, to practice deception and dishonesty and tell the Nazis that you weren't hiding anyone.

When they go against that absolute standard they are sinning, even if they don't want to admit that the standard of God's nature and character exists.

Since the bible itself doesn't portray a particularly reasonable, admirable, consistent or morally upright deity, I can't see any such standard.

QoS, why do you think God should be held to your laws? His standards are above yours. You don't make the rules and determine whats moral, he does. He set the rules and guidelines for us to follow, he has every right in his sovereignty to break those rules. God does not have to follow the laws he sets for us. God can't not tell the truth and he can't not be holy and pure. Whether he excuses that and allows it for humans is his decree and he has EVERY right to do it. God created all life in the universe, he can kill anyone he wants for what ever reason he deems, and its completely moral because his nature determines what is moral for him. And God doesn't say thou shalt now kill, the Hebrew bible says thou shalt not murder. Since he created life, its not wrong for him to take away.

I never ceases to amaze me how much atheists constantly bring up the same arguments to make God seem like a sadist dictator. Atheists seem to think God has to abide by their laws.

Yellum Notnef · 03-22-2003, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Atheists seem to think God has to abide by their laws.

Not this atheist.

Queen of Swords · 03-22-2003, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
QoS, why do you think God should be held to your laws?

Because my laws (eg. you can lie to save an innocent person's life) make more sense than his.

His standards are above yours.

Prove it.

You don't make the rules and determine whats moral, he does.

Considering that in the bible, he carries out or authorizes genocide, child murder and rape, I think I'll be using standards other than his to determine what's moral.

He set the rules and guidelines for us to follow, he has every right in his sovereignty to break those rules. God does not have to follow the laws he sets for us.

In which case he's morally inconsistent and a poor example. "Do as I say, not as I do" generally doesn't command respect from me.

God can't not tell the truth and he can't not be holy and pure.

But he can order people to kill their own children and the unborn infants of others.

Whether he excuses that and allows it for humans is his decree and he has EVERY right to do it. God created all life in the universe, he can kill anyone he wants for what ever reason he deems, and its completely moral because his nature determines what is moral for him.

Basically, might makes right. Hypothetically speaking, if your god had decided to burn everyone in hell forever - everyone, no exceptions, would that be completely moral because his nature would determine that that was moral? Assume for the sake of this argument that your god never sent Jesus as a sacrifice.

And God doesn't say thou shalt now kill, the Hebrew bible says thou shalt not murder.

In that case, why did the Israelites murder small children and pregnant women?

Oh that's right, God told them to.

Since he created life, its not wrong for him to take away.

I don't see how the act of creation automatically becomes a moral blank check for him to commit murder. Also, his method of "taking it away" seems to be to order his chosen people to butcher others, which brings us back to the point that it is all right to murder someone if God tells you to do so.

I never ceases to amaze me how much atheists constantly bring up the same arguments to make God seem like a sadist dictator.

But Magus, I don't need to do so. You're doing a great job showing your god to be a sadist dictator all by yourself.

Atheists seem to think God has to abide by their laws.

Well, his own laws are brutal, inconsistent, misogynistic and ludicrous. He could do a lot worse than abiding by mine.

Magus55 · 03-22-2003, 07:18 PM

QoS, his actions are only heinous to you because you try to fit him in to societies morality. He can do whatever the heck he wants and its ALWAYS just and righteous. You will never comprehend the meaning of absolute justice and righteousness so quite arguing over the issue. You have already made your choice that if God turns out to exist, you won't follow him, so it doesn't matter anway. You seem to like following Satan's lies and deception instead of God since of course you think you are better than him when trying to fit him into our world.

The Naked Mage · 03-22-2003, 07:46 PM

Quote:

You seem to like following Satan's lies and deception instead of God since of course you think you are better than him when trying to fit him into our world.

You can practically see his frothing saliva spilling off his keyboard and into his lap, cantcha?

Hedwig · 03-22-2003, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
QoS, his actions are only heinous to you because you try to fit him in to societies morality. He can do whatever the heck he wants and its ALWAYS just and righteous. You will never comprehend the meaning of absolute justice and righteousness so quite arguing over the issue. You have already made your choice that if God turns out to exist, you won't follow him, so it doesn't matter anway. You seem to like following Satan's lies and deception instead of God since of course you think you are better than him when trying to fit him into our world.

Says the Muslim to the Christian who questions his deity.

Yellum Notnef · 03-22-2003, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Naked Mage
You can practically see his frothing saliva spilling off his keyboard and into his lap, cantcha?

No kidding. He's a scary kid.
I consider the conversation over once they break out the stuff about "Satans lies".

I mean how can you talk to someone who says stuff like that?

kctan · 03-22-2003, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fenton Mulley
No kidding. He's a scary kid.
I consider the conversation over once they break out the stuff about "Satans lies".

I mean how can you talk to someone who says stuff like that?

Simple, with this "GET THEE BEHIND ME YE SATAN !!! "

Queen of Swords · 03-22-2003, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
QoS, his actions are only heinous to you because you try to fit him in to societies morality. He can do whatever the heck he wants and its ALWAYS just and righteous.

In other words, it's righteous to torture small children for all eternity?

That's one screwed-up morality.

You will never comprehend the meaning of absolute justice and righteousness so quite arguing over the issue.

Absolute justice and righteousness means the freedom to hurt innocent people for all eternity?

I think you just want me to "quite arguing" because you see this concept makes no sense at all.

You have already made your choice that if God turns out to exist, you won't follow him,

Tell me again why I should follow a brutal bloodthirsty maniac who has carte blanche from you to murder and torture whoever he likes.

so it doesn't matter anway. You seem to like following Satan's lies and deception

Please show, using biblical examples if possible, how the statements I have made reflect satan's lies rather than actual crimes committed by your deity-of-choice.

instead of God since of course you think you are better than him when trying to fit him into our world.

Let's see, am I better than him?

Committed genocide - God
Authorized wholesale slaughter of defeated peoples, including noncombatants - God
Authorized rape of captured women - God
Killed all the Egyptian first-born - God
Gave misogynistic laws - God
Ordered the stoning of rebellious children and the beating of all children - God
Discriminated against the handicapped or disfigured - God
Required the murder of his own child - God
Ordered a man to murder his own child - God

Took Magus55 on in several debates - QoS

I see your point - I'm terrible!

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03-22-2003, 05:26 PM	#24
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Magus55 QoS, why do you think God should be held to your laws? Because my laws (eg. you can lie to save an innocent person's life) make more sense than his. His standards are above yours. Prove it. You don't make the rules and determine whats moral, he does. Considering that in the bible, he carries out or authorizes genocide, child murder and rape, I think I'll be using standards other than his to determine what's moral. He set the rules and guidelines for us to follow, he has every right in his sovereignty to break those rules. God does not have to follow the laws he sets for us. In which case he's morally inconsistent and a poor example. "Do as I say, not as I do" generally doesn't command respect from me. God can't not tell the truth and he can't not be holy and pure. But he can order people to kill their own children and the unborn infants of others. Whether he excuses that and allows it for humans is his decree and he has EVERY right to do it. God created all life in the universe, he can kill anyone he wants for what ever reason he deems, and its completely moral because his nature determines what is moral for him. Basically, might makes right. Hypothetically speaking, if your god had decided to burn everyone in hell forever - everyone, no exceptions, would that be completely moral because his nature would determine that that was moral? Assume for the sake of this argument that your god never sent Jesus as a sacrifice. And God doesn't say thou shalt now kill, the Hebrew bible says thou shalt not murder. In that case, why did the Israelites murder small children and pregnant women? Oh that's right, God told them to. Since he created life, its not wrong for him to take away. I don't see how the act of creation automatically becomes a moral blank check for him to commit murder. Also, his method of "taking it away" seems to be to order his chosen people to butcher others, which brings us back to the point that it is all right to murder someone if God tells you to do so. I never ceases to amaze me how much atheists constantly bring up the same arguments to make God seem like a sadist dictator. But Magus, I don't need to do so. You're doing a great job showing your god to be a sadist dictator all by yourself. Atheists seem to think God has to abide by their laws. Well, his own laws are brutal, inconsistent, misogynistic and ludicrous. He could do a lot worse than abiding by mine.

03-22-2003, 07:18 PM	#25
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	QoS, his actions are only heinous to you because you try to fit him in to societies morality. He can do whatever the heck he wants and its ALWAYS just and righteous. You will never comprehend the meaning of absolute justice and righteousness so quite arguing over the issue. You have already made your choice that if God turns out to exist, you won't follow him, so it doesn't matter anway. You seem to like following Satan's lies and deception instead of God since of course you think you are better than him when trying to fit him into our world.

03-22-2003, 09:18 PM	#30
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Magus55 QoS, his actions are only heinous to you because you try to fit him in to societies morality. He can do whatever the heck he wants and its ALWAYS just and righteous. In other words, it's righteous to torture small children for all eternity? That's one screwed-up morality. You will never comprehend the meaning of absolute justice and righteousness so quite arguing over the issue. Absolute justice and righteousness means the freedom to hurt innocent people for all eternity? I think you just want me to "quite arguing" because you see this concept makes no sense at all. You have already made your choice that if God turns out to exist, you won't follow him, Tell me again why I should follow a brutal bloodthirsty maniac who has carte blanche from you to murder and torture whoever he likes. so it doesn't matter anway. You seem to like following Satan's lies and deception Please show, using biblical examples if possible, how the statements I have made reflect satan's lies rather than actual crimes committed by your deity-of-choice. instead of God since of course you think you are better than him when trying to fit him into our world. Let's see, am I better than him? Committed genocide - God Authorized wholesale slaughter of defeated peoples, including noncombatants - God Authorized rape of captured women - God Killed all the Egyptian first-born - God Gave misogynistic laws - God Ordered the stoning of rebellious children and the beating of all children - God Discriminated against the handicapped or disfigured - God Required the murder of his own child - God Ordered a man to murder his own child - God Took Magus55 on in several debates - QoS I see your point - I'm terrible!

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