SharonDee

I can't tell you how happy I am to see you say this. I know many Christians believe that very thing, but in my travels I don't hear from them; only the "literally true" crowd.

Welcome!

NOGO

Hi True Christian,

I posted this before but you did not answer.
Can you please take the time and enlighten us poor lost souls. Thank you.

Here is your chance to enlighten some of us or at least me. I don`t mean to put you on the spot here Barbara and I do invite one an all to participate. The problem I describe below runs rather high on my list of "why I am not a Christian?". For this reason I am sure that you will want to straighten me out.

Somewhere in Genesis man made a great sin and God promised us a saviour.
Jesus was the sacrificial lamb whose blood would allow God to forgive humanity.

Hebrews 9:22
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

We can look back at the OT note the bold text


Lev 4
24 "He shall lay his hand on the head of the male goat and slay it in the place where they slay the burnt offering before the LORD; it is a sin offering.
25 "Then the priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering.
26 All its fat he shall offer up in smoke on the altar as in the case of the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin, and he will be forgiven.

Lev 5
5 "So it shall be when he becomes guilty in one of these, that he shall confess that in which he has sinned.
6 "He shall also bring his guilt offering to the LORD for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin.
7 "But if he cannot afford a lamb, then he shall bring to the LORD his guilt offering for that in which he has sinned, two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering.
8 "He shall bring them to the priest, who shall offer first that which is for the sin offering and shall nip its head at the front of its neck, but he shall not sever it.
9 "He shall also sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar, while the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar: it is a sin offering.
10 "The second he shall then prepare as a burnt offering according to the ordinance. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin which he has committed, and it will be forgiven him.

There are many more examples.
Basically to have their sin's forgiven the Hebrews shed animal blood to Yahweh ... and He forgave them.

Jesus was suppose to be a sacrificial lamb for forginess of sins.
But hopefully not ordinary sins since they had ordinary lambs and other animals for that. This is the way Hebrews 9 puts it.

Hebrew 9:13-14
For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

So Jesus' blood was much more effective than animal blood but surely Jesus did not die for ordinary sins alone. Romans 5 explains Jesus' main mission.

Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.


Romans 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

A read of Romans 5 shows that Jesus' main mission was, in a nutshell, to undo Adam's sin and reconcile humanity to God.

This is then God's plan for humanity. After man sinned God promised a saviour who would fix man`s error and give him that which he has lost, eternal life.

I hope, Barbara, that I have stated the essence of Christianity without offending your true Christian ears or, in this case, your true Christian eyes.

Here are my thoughts on the above which I shall call "God`s plan".

I have read all of the Old Testament.

In Genesis I don't really see that God promised a saviour but I will continue assuming that it is there and it is just me who cannot see it.

Where in the rest of the OT do any of God`s prophets speak of "God`s plan" ?
I have not found a single word on the subject. So please Barbara if you know of a place in the OT that speaks of the need to undo what Adam did in order to reconciled humanity with God and have eternal life, let me know.

Here is a good place where I would have expected a word or two.
NASB Ecclesiastes 9
2 It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear.
3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.
4 For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.
7 Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works.
8 Let your clothes be white all the time, and let not oil be lacking on your head.
9 Enjoy life with the woman whom you love all the days of your fleeting life which He has given to you under the sun; for this is your reward in life and in your toil in which you have labored under the sun.
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.

The author of Ecc 9 is saying that there is one fate for all men, good or bad. All are going to Sheol. What is Sheol? Verse 4,5 and 10 give you some information. There is hope for the living but not for the dead (verse 4). The living know that they will die but the dead know nothing (verse 5). There is no activity, planning, knowledge or wisdom in Sheol (verse 10).

So this would have been the perfect place for this author to tell us that God actually promised humanity a way out. Redemption and eternal life through a saviour. But this author like all of the OT says nothing about "God's plan".


Where did Jesus state his mission as being related to "God's plan".
That is where does Jesus say that he is there to undo what Adam did and reconcile humanity to God. Please Barbara let me know I simply have not found any.


Jesus does state what his mission is about in Matthew 15

Matthew 15
22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."
23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"
26 And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."

"I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel"
You can't have clearer than that. Now people usually say but he granted the woman what she wanted. Yes he did but it does not matter much. Jesus says very plainly that he is not there for all of humanity but only for the people of Israel. How could this be the one to save the world from the fall of mankind. Jesus seems to be unaware of "God's plan".

So what Romans 5 says is contradicted by Matthew 15.


Next...
This is Luke 1, John the baptist's father is speaking.

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Where is the fall of humanity?
Verses 74 and 75 stated the purpose of salvation.
Note "all the days of our life" but where is eternal life given by Jesus' sacrifice as opposed to death brought by Adam's sin (according to Romans 5). Where is God's promise to redeem humanity?

If mankind fell
If God promised a saviour to redeem humanity

THEN

a) This theme would have been present throughout the old testament
b) the prophets would have spoken about this very import revelation from God
c) Jesus would have stated THIS as his mission


INSTEAD

We have a vague reference in Genesis and we have Romans 5 and a BIG BIG HOLE in between.

Please explain where I have erred.

Darwin's Finch

Good post and excellent question, NOGO. Just don't hold your breath waiting for TC to answer it. She seems more interested in preaching than thinking.

Abacus

What other parts of the bible would you consider a myth?

seebs

I'm too lazy to do the point-by-point. The Old Testament prophets predicted the coming of the Messiah. The Christian teaching is that they didn't know what *exactly* he'd do, but that he'd, in some way, "establish the kingdom of God". Being literalists, they were pretty much uninterested in some guy who went around preaching at them and mysteriously failed to grind empires under his heel.

The theory is, God doesn't always tell us the details of His plans in advance. He told them enough that they would, if they paid attention and maintained a good attitude, be ready for the next part of the process when it happened. Some were ready, some were not.

So... The Old Testament doesn't talk about a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins, because that level of detail about the "kingdom of God" was not intended to be revealed. I dunno why; my guess is, because until people had gotten clear on the sheer impossibility of being genuinely perfect all the time, they wouldn't understand *why* allowances needed to be made for our flaws.

That's the interpretation I've heard. I'm sure there are others.

Kosh

Sounds like retro-fitting to me. Or

"How I shoe-horned my new cult into an existing
religion"- by Saul or Tarsus

This makes no sense. Why not just come out with
it all up front? Don't you think he'd have got
better results? This "progressive revelation"
theory sounds suspiciously like revisionism.

Kosh

Actually, she's busy. I sent my kids over there and
told them to keep knocking on the door and asking
"Can your kids come play Mormon Tabernacle Choir with us?", and not to give up till she
gave in...

seebs

When I was in 1st grade, I was told you couldn't subtract a larger number from a smaller one. By fifth grade, we were allowed to do that, but the result couldn't have its square root taken. These days, I am expected to be able to cope with transfinite components of complex numbers.

Moral growth at a cultural level can take a very long time.

Toto

seebs - are you actually studying with a religious teacher or authority, or are you making it up as you go along? What you're making up (if you are) doesn't sound that bad, but why is it Christianity?

Perchance

Seebs:

I am encouraged to hear you say this, and I wish more people (whether they claim the title of True Christian or not) had your attitude. I have heard people describe it as a science textbook, sadly enough, and not seem to understand that its various scientific inaccuracies give a reader cause, at least, to doubt.

While I accept that you see it as a moral handbook, I don't accept that it should be the end-all and be-all. This isn't prejudice in particular against the Bible; I don't think any book can be the end-all and be-all. I think people need to make up their own minds after looking at a variety of sources. If some of them choose to be Christians, fine. But there shouldn't be prejudice against those who choose not to be.

That's why I distrust those who claim the Bible is the only moral book, or religious book, that anyone ever needs to read. To me, this sounds like fear that if people actually read other moral or religious books, they would wind up making a different decision.

-Perchance.