Meanoldman

I know that lately I have been going through a crisis of faith and I haven't a clue how to work it out. All I know is that if I conclude that this life is all there is I will probably end up totally hopeless.
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Hi Odemus,

I don’t know you or know exactly what you are going through, but I do know something about having a “crisis of faith” experience.

I found there to be some depressing aspects to it initially. I wasted a lot of time with a group of people and system of beliefs that turned out to be useless. I was feeling lost for a period of time, like I had no sense of direction as to where to go in my life. It was a drag for a short time.

I pulled through that and found that on the other side of that obstacle was an incredible reward. I felt a kind of freedom that I was not accustomed to, like being able to breath for the first time in years. My mind and thoughts are free to travel experience and explore, no longer oppressed by the dogma that once bound me.

As for death, yeah I’m going to die – I’m sure of this (I’m going to die if it’s the last thing I do.) In the mean time I don’t need to be hung up about it. If the consciousness that I have now only lasts for the duration of my life, that’s ok. In such a case, yes I will die with almost as many unanswered questions as I had when I was born, that’s ok too.

I don’t see this as making life meaningless, it makes it more meaningful. A one-time shot. Make the best of it.

Just hang in there.

Devin

Starboy

Thanks again spurly! As a Christian, do you desire that our government and law become completly in accord with the Bible? Do you think that it is appropriate that Christian ideals be actively promoted by our government?

Starboy

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

Hawkingfan

Thank you, Kevin. I have to respectfully disagree. I think they do contradict each other. Also, if certain laws of god can be broken at times using a Christian's best judgement, then we should be suspect of all of gods laws. Maybe the laws should have been written a different way, because what Jesus did would not be based on scripture.
Also, I really don't think gods laws are "higher" in principle than earthly laws. I think they are much lower and despicable. Please consider the following laws of god (compiled by Donald Morgan at the Secular Web Modern Library):

EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.

LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG 11:30-39)

DT 21:10-13 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.

GE 17:14 A child is to be punished when his parents neglect to have him circumcised.

GE 31:17, GE 36:6, DT 21:15, JG 8:30, SA 5:13, KI 11:3, CH 14:3, CH 11:21, 13:21 Polygamy is condoned. (Note: David is one of the polygamists. He is an angel of God, SA 19:27, and always fulfills God's will,AC 13:22.)--did god "intend" David to be a polygamist?

EX 20:4 We are not to make likenesses of anything. (Note: This seems to preclude all photographs, paintings, statues, etc.)--Do you take photos? Collect pictures and paintings? Did you know the ark of the covenant had 2 golden statues of angels on top?

EX 20:8-11, 31:15-17, 34:21, 35:1-3 No work of any kind is to be done on the Sabbath, not even lighting of a fire. This commandment is permanent. Death is required for infractions. (Note: This would require even that essential services, such as hospitals, police departments, etc., shut down on the Sabbath.)--sounds to me like we should break GOD'S laws, not man's.

EX 21:7-11 A father can sell a daughter into slavery to pay a debt. A daughter sold into slavery is not released at the end of six years as is an ordinary male slave.

EX 21:12 Whoever strikes a man so that he dies is to be put to death--except that, in some cases, God will appoint a place to which the offender may flee instead.

EX 21:15 Whoever strikes his father or mother is to be put to death.

EX 21:16 Whoever steals a man is to be put to death. (Note: This is in spite of the fact that a father can sell his daughter into slavery; see EX 21:7-11.)

EX 21:17, LE 20:9, DT 21:18-21 A child who curses his parent(s) is to be put to death. A stubborn and/or rebellious child is to be put to death.

EX 21:20-21 A slave owner is to be punished if he strikes his slave and the slave dies shortly thereafter. If the slave lives a day or to and then dies, the slave owner is not to be punished. A slave is the same as money to his owner.--once again, sounds like we shouldn't obey GOD'S laws, but man's.

EX 21:28-32 When an ox gores a man to death, the ox must be stoned. If the ox has gored a man previously, the animal's owner must also be put to death; in the case of the goring of a slave, the only requirement is that the owner of the ox must pay thirty shekels to the owner of the slave.

EX 22:16-17 An unbetrothed virgin is required to marry her seducer.

EX 22:29 Firstborn children should be sacrificed to the Lord.--God likes abortion?

LE 19:19 A cloth garment made of two kinds of material must not be worn.

LE 19:26 Flesh with blood in it must not be eaten.

LE 19:27 The hair on the temples should not be rounded off.

LE 19:27 The edges of a beard should not be clipped.

LE 25:44-46, DT 15:17, EP 6:5, CN 3:22, TS 2:9, PE 2:18 Slavery is an everlasting institution. Slaves are to obey their masters in everything.

NU 5:12-31 A woman suspected or accused of adultery is to be tested by making her drink the "water of bitterness," or holy water mixed with dust from the floor. (Note: There is no such test for men.)

NU 31:18, 35, JG 21:12 Young virgins are considered a spoil of war and can be taken for the use of the victors.

DT 22:13-21 A bride in whom "the tokens of virginity" are not found is to be put to death. (Note: The bridegroom who falsely accuses his bride gets off with a fine.)

DT 22:23-24 A betrothed virgin who is seduced in the city is to be put to death unless she cries for help.

DT 22:28-29 A virgin who is raped must marry her rapist (if they are "found").

DT 23:1 A man whose testicles are crushed or whose "male member" is cut off may not enter the sanctuary.

DT 23:2 A bastard--and his offspring to the tenth generation--are to be punished for his illegitimacy and cannot enter a congregation of the Lord.

DT 23:10 A man who has a seminal emission during the night is unclean and must go through a purification process.

DT 23:12-14 The Lord must not be allowed to see human excrement (it is indecent).

DT 23:19-20 Money must not be lent at interest to a brother (meaning a fellow Israelite). Interest can only be collected from foreigners.

DT 24:1-4 A man may divorce his wife simply because she displeases him.

DT 25:5-10 A man has an obligation to produce a child for his widowed sister-in-law.

DT 25:11 A wife who grabs her husband's opponent by his "private parts" must have her hand cut off and is to be shown no pity.

PR 13:24, 22:15, 23:13 Children are to be disciplined with the rod-- if beaten with a rod, they will not die. (Note: Many Christian parents have inadvertently beaten a child to death following this precept.)

HO 4:14 The sins of female prostitutes and adulterers can be excused when the men themselves set a bad example.

MT 23:9 Do not call any man on earth "father."

MT 5:18-19 The OT law is to remain in effect until heaven and earth pass away.

Also, how are we to trust god's lawgiving when one considers the following:

EZ 20:25 God says that he intentionally gave out bad laws. (This means that God-given laws or commandments are sometimes suspect.)

1KI 22:23, 2CH 18:22, JE 4:10, JE 20:7, EZ 14:9 God deceives some of the prophets.

JE 8:8 The scribes falsify the word.

2TH 2:11-12 God deceives the wicked (to be able to condemn them).
(Note: Every word of God cannot prove true if God deceives anyone at all; the Bible cannot be trusted if the scribes falsify the word. The first reference is mutually exclusive with the other three. Thus, the Bible cannot be the perfect work of a perfect and loving God since one or more of the above references is obviously untrue.)
(Note: Some versions use the word "persuade." The context makes clear, however, that deception is involved.)

Hawkingfan

I have to disagree. I think there are many people who truly believe in god. Just look at the Hale-Bopp cult. Or the 9/11 terrorists. I think that those were acts of their faith. Remember that brain-washing is a very powerful thing.

(thanks Shadowy Man)

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Hawkingfan ]</p>

Shadowy Man

&lt;nitpick&gt;It was Hale-Bopp.&lt;/nitpick&gt;

nXile

The main argument in this thread seems to be that if people actually lived as they believed, then THAT would be proof of God? Cmon! God can't be proved or disproved through human (inter)action. And even if it could, it wouldn't convince anyone.

For example:
There's no point in believing in God if you think you can do it yourself. None. If you don't want to be helped, why would God force help on you? Because God loves and helping is loving? It doesn't feel very loving if it's not wanted or appreciated.

There are many examples of people who live as they believe, and many examples of people who don't live as they belive. Whatever side of the argument you're on, you'll use the one and ignore the other. Or make excuses like "Brainwashing" for believers or "God has deceived them" for non-believers.

I think maybe the question that relates to this thread is:
What's the point of believing in God if those who do believe are not different than those who do believe?

Then the question as an answer is: What do you WANT believing in God to mean?

It's like this: Before gravity was named by Newton (named = math equation) it still worked and life was lived the same way. After gravity was named, better greater things were accomplished and discovered in the name of science...by those who thought gravity was important. Those who did not think gravity was important, kept living their lives in gravity but without being changed by the knowledge of gravity.

And so the argument can go: Yes, you can prove gravity to me, but that doesn't matter, because gravity doesn't change my life. Therefore, gravity doesn't exist because it is not an agent of change in my life.

Or try this one: Yes, you can prove gravity to me, but that doesn't matter, because gravity has changed my life. Therefore, gravity exists because it has changed my life.

And before Newton, one could've said: I don't know how to explain this thing that keeps me on the ground, but that doesn't matter, because it has/hasn't change my life. Therefore, it exists/doesn't exist because it has/hasn't changed my life.

To me, God is an agent of change in my life. I believe that God allows me to do what I do, whether it be right or wrong. I like to talk about how God has changed me, and how God works in my life. But if God is not important to you, then what I talk about is meaningless to you.

My friend likes lettuce. I can't stand lettuce. So on the few occasions that my friend talks about lettuce, I cannot relate and don't relate. However, we do not try to convert one another to the lettuce/anti-lettuce side or try to prove one another wrong.

But, there is this thing where when I tell people "I don't like lettuce" they go into a long speil about how much they love lettuce and how great lettuce is...like they want me to convert to lettuce so that my life will be awesome like their's. And that's damn annoyning. And Christianity has often done that. Been damn annoyning. Going around telling others how others should live. I can see why there's backlash to that. At any rate, it got Jesus killed.

Anyways, to bring it all back to a point, God cannot be proved or disproved through human action.

nXi|e

emotional

On the subject of theistic self-deception, which I adhere to, as I'm a naturalistic <a href="http://www.geocities.com/stmetanat/presuppositional.htm" target="_blank">presuppositionalist</a>, I shall quote myself:

You can read the whole article <a href="http://www.geocities.com/stmetanat/selfdeception.htm" target="_blank">here</a>.

diana

nXi|e said: No.

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: diana ]</p>

Direct Current

I have been to several funerals where its been a celebration...in part. If the person you love most was going away for a long, long, long time even the knowledge of a far-off future reunion would not lessen how much you would miss that person. Funerals are sad because of the separation and missing loved ones...not a commentary on where the loved one is going.

Direct Current

Alright! A moderator on EOG who knows the Bible. (This should be interesting). I thought this was a forum on the Existence of God, not "How I feel about Christians and their actions" Are we off topic here?

Personally, I cannot (in a scientific manner) replicate evidence and "prove" God. Instead, I weighed a lot of evidence (some circumstantial) and made a judgement.

Hung juries make for great movies and stories. I think we here are part of a jury deciding the verdict. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />