Jerry Smith

Jeff/Hamlet: Bait makes a similar argument below, that God does not conform to our ideas of justice or morality, we must conform to His. There was a thread here a month or two ago about this. It was absolutely fantastic. Basically it said that if God's justice/morality was different than human justice/morality, we need new names. If we keep calling what's good by the name good, then we have to call what God thinks is good by some other name: perhaps Evil, or Smegma, or some name that reflects a moral position that humans cannot truly grasp. If we keep calling God's way good, then we need to make up new names for what we consider good. Maybe Bert or Dingleberry. So if God is not Bert, then we should not trust Him, because trustworthiness is only a quality that comes from being Bert (where Bert is the new name for just). If God is not Dingleberry (good), then we should not worship him. It works out the same way in the end, whether or not God has different Divine moral positions than we have.

I sincerely wish I could remember who posted that topic and could remember where the thread was to link to it, but I think it shows clearly why the argument of Divine Perspective fails to satisfy.

Not Prince Hamlet

There was an interesting film called "Prophecy" that starred Christopher Walken. The film was flawed, but one of the things I really liked was how the film depicted angels. When you think about it, angels would have a completely different perspective from men: who cares if a man dies? It just brings him to God quicker. What does it mean to wait an hour when you have eternity? And so on.

Jeff

Harumi

Goodness!

I had not expected so many replies, nor had I expected a serious debate to heat up quite so fast.

A brief history about me:
I was raised in a Taiwanese/Buddhist/Taoist family. My religion had been polytheistic, with many gods and goddesses, most of which I still know the name of. My parents do not mind the fact that I am atheist, and in that religion, even a non-believer may receive reward, so I'm not in any danger of hellfire or eternal torture for my lack of faith. Now that that's over with, a few things I need to respond to.

Just a few clarifications by what I mean when I mention God:

The God doesn't have to be the one mentioned in the Bible. When I say God, I did not meant that it necessarily had to be the God of Abraham. If I was so specific as to say HIM, I would just as quickly agree with you that I'd rather a God not exist.

God doesn't have to be all powerful, omniscient, or omnipotent. They could simply be like the Gods in Eastern religions. When I wished there was a God, I was mainly thinking of the gods and goddesses who seek out to help those in need. The reason they became deities in the first place was because of their kindness, which is what I tend to expect from a God if I am to ever worship one. They aren't all-powerful, so the idea of them creating the perfect world had never occurred to me. Sharondee (if I spelled your name incorrectly I apologize) had the right idea.

I guess I forgot that most of the people here was raised in western, European religions, mainly monotheistic, not polytheistic, like me. Sorry about that.

Bait,

I understand that what you feel about your religion is special, and that you may become frustrated because you are so incredibly certain that you are right. I used to think that way too...in fact, I still do , except my thoughts and ideas have reason and logic to back them up. I just want you to realize that I was in no way trying to start another debate which consisted of dissing Christianity.

However, I will tell you beforehand that Christianity is something I will never
convert to. I had a horrible time with a believer who frightened me to death when I was twelve, and I don't think I've recovered since. It's been five years now (not that long for some of you, I know) and I still have a grudge. Until all Christians get their act together, your religion isn't something that I will even consider, much less convert to.

I'm so glad for the honest responses and I will try to answer as much as I can. I'll try, but my internet time is limited so bear with me.

Harumi

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> &lt;--These were randomly placed here simply because I adore this graemlin.

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Harumi ]</p>

Jerry Smith

What did the film was say the angels' perspective on babies starving for months before dying? Death might not be so terrible, but plenty of other things (not always the ones that culminate in death) are terrible enough to make up the difference.

[edited for clarity]

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Jerry Smith ]</p>

sandlewood

As I said before, you certainly aren't offending anyone here by posting you opinions. It's just that, as I'm sure you know, this is a place where this topic is discussed in depth. So people may challenge each other's opinions. If people expect to make a longish post of their assertions and never come back to discuss them further…well, that kind of a "drive-by posting".

You're right. I didn't mean to imply that all atheists are the same. Loneliness and fear of death are basic human anxieties. Some atheists have them and some don't. The only thing that can be said about all Atheists is that they don't have a belief in a god or gods. Otherwise, they can be totally different.

I regularly get brochures and newsletters in the mail from local churches in my area trying to increase their attendance. What I find very strange about them is that they attract people by telling you what a fun their church it is. They describe all the activities that go on. They assure you that you'll meet a lot of people and have fun. But they never say anything about their particular way of teaching Christianity, which I would think should be the most important factor in your choice of church. Churches have become a kind of social club for people who are lonely and have a fear of death. So for this purpose, maybe they work. I know people who have joined churches just to meet people because they were lonely. Personally, I have different ways to deal with loneliness and fear of death that don't require me to sacrifice my value of truth and my freedom to use reasoning.

I would not care one bit if people want to believe in the Christian God or Zeus or Odin or whatever, as long as they didn't interfere in other people's lives. But the fact is that these days we are in a struggle to maintain the separation of church and state in the US, which is eroding. If theists are going to claim that there should be no separation of church and state because Christianity is the correct religion, then I have no choice by to debate that claim.

Same could be said for any dictator. They had enemies, too. Their enemies were people who didn't love them.

Bait

ReasonableDoubt;
I went back, and looked at the verses you mentioned...then went and researched some of points in the verses, such as what Balaam and Peor is. Apparently you didn't, instead you twisted what the verses actually says.

Since is the one's that you are using to say God is so horrible, lets see what they really say:

Num 31:15
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
Num 31:16
Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

Num 31:17
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Notice first it was Moses, as leader of his nation, that ordered them to be killed, NOT GOD.

second, look closer:

Num 31:16
Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

Apparently these were prisoners that had been captured in battle. And these prisoners had apparently also done something that caused a plague among the Israeli people.

Num 31:16
Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

I looked it up. Apparently the worship of Baal (Balaam, or Baalim is the plural)many times consisted of religious (temple) prostitution and child sacrifice.

Num 31:17
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

The males and the women that hath known man were probably those temple prostitutes. Notice that it does not say how old the little ones were either. But it does say they were old enough to commit trespass (spread the plague). The plague was probably a sexual desease. Apparently (according to Num 31:16) these prostitutes were going out of their way to see how much of this desease they could spread among the Israeli's. Oh yea, if they were spreading the desease...then that would mean either they too had the desease, or were carriers. That means that they probably would die anyway. So killing them only stops the desease.

The ones who could NOT spread the desease, they (the Israeli's)left alive.

Go back now to Num 31:8:
Num 31:8
And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

The Israeli's killed the KINGS of Midian...their counterpart today would be Osama Bin Laden and his generals. They killed the leaders, the ones who promoted the terrorism, who condoned and promited the child sacrifice, who condoned and promoted the temple prostitution. They then destroyed (by fire) the cities...and the headquarters (the castles). It does NOT say that the Israeli's exterminated everyone in those cities. In fact, look at this:

Num 31:11
And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

What???? They kept alive THE MEN!!!!!!
That means it WAS NOT genocide!!!!! They killed the terrorists, and their leaders...that's all. They went after the bad ones.

So tell me, what is the difference between that and what we of the USA, the UN forces, are doing today? Terrorism is terrorism...no matter the method. These apparently used biological weapons...via prostitutes, those of today use bombs.

So to sum it up:
1. God did not order the women and male kids to death...Moses did as the leader of a nation.

2. Moses did not order genocide...only the order to kill the ones responsible for causing a plague among his people...the prostitute terrorists.

3. God did not order killed all males...only the ones that were part of the conspiracy of terrorism.

4. He ordered their deaths to stop a plague, to stop a genocide plot against his people.

5. By defeating these cities, it could be assumed that it ended, or slowed down the child sacrifices.

6. The Israeli's killed the terorist leaders.

Puts a different light to at least this story...doesn't it?

Ron

Jayhawker Soule

I'm speachless.

Not Prince Hamlet

Unfortunately, I don't recall if they touched on that or not. It would be interesting to see the angel's perspective on it, though.

A clever narrative at the beginning points out that angels were always the beings God said when he was about to destroy a city or send a plague or what have you. That being the case, the narrator goes, would you ever really want to meet an angel?

Jeff

Bait

Hello Sidewinder:

_________________________________________________

Yes, I mean a realm outside of our natural world,not seen (normally) and no, I do not have any physical proof of it. It's one of those things you take on faith.

__________________________________________________

That's my point...no one knows for sure, based on evidence.
No, the basis of my faith is experiences that happened to me, that works for me, personally. What I was saying by that statement is that no one can honestly say "that there is no god(s)", because we do not know all. I was not meaning because you do not know all, you should believe in my God. It matters to me because that belief is a source of strength and comfort...for me. You believe differently, fine. We all get our strength and comfort from different sources. To me, I'm not wasting anything, to you, you're not either. To each other, we are. To each his own then.

_________________________________________________

Fair enough,
Well, actually I have thought for myself, and happen to come to the conclusion that this is right for me. I'm not only putting faith in the ideas of other men, but also in the experiences I have had, the things I have seen.

_________________________________________________

Where did you develop your morality? Who did you learn it from? Is it not based on something that was taught to you? So are you not basing your morality based upon some other mens ideas? Think that morality is not taught? What about the cannibal's of South America, and Pacific Islands? To them it's perfectly moral to eat humans. The Japanese samurai believed to take an opponents head meant you received his power, his strength. What about the terrorists that are now being taught from childhood that it is ok to kill innocent people? So by whose morals are you going to judge a god(s) or my God?
As to wiping out entire groups of people, you didn't read what was written. See my comments to Reasonable Doubt...they did not kill babies, they killed children who were probably prostitutes, spreading desease. No where is babies mentioned. You read into the verses what you wanted it to say...not what it really said. The entire population was not wiped out.

__ _________________________________________________

Thank you for the compliment (the moderate part anyway). I do believe in peace...really.

I'm NOT implying that all should believe in my God because we don't know everything. That's why I stated
" can you be absolutely 100% sure there is no such thing as god(s), or a god, or even the God of Abraham?"

Notice I said god(s), or a god, or God of Abraham.
Again, my point is that you shouldn't just cart blanc say that there is no god(s), or say that someone is stupid for believing in a god, god(s), or God of Abraham, because there is no way you can know that for a fact, unless you know everything. Instead, would it not be better to accept that they have faith in XXX...and just say "I don't believe in your faith"...and leave it at that? Maybe ask about their faith if your curious as to what they believe.

Part of the problem, part of the bickering I admit is that some from my faith gets obnoxious in trying to convert people. The fact is though, if someone doesn't WANT to believe, no amount of needling will make them believe, because believing in anything takes faith. Not all Christians are the same. Some are more tolerate than others.

The other part of the problem though, is that some from YOUR camp tend to try to belittle, berate, and generally also become obnoxious in attempting to disprove someones faith...especially if they are Christian. Look at how vicious some of the attacks on this thread was toward me, even when I tried to apologize, and back off.

Instead would it not be better to ask "what about this verse?" if you do not understand why we believe a certain way? Asking if "this verse(s) SEEM to say this...please explain, I may not have all of the answers, but if asked in a civil tone, I would be happy to discuss...even debate the issue. But don't call someone stupid, or illogical just because they believe in something. To some of us, who look at this beautiful world, and it's wonderful complexities...cannot logically see how it could come about without guidance from someone. MY someone just happens to be the God of Abraham...because it works for me. If it doesn't work for you...fine. Just don't compare me to the terrorists that bombed the WTC.

By the way, thanks for discussing this with me politely, it's realy appreciated more than you know.

Harumi;
thank you for your kind words. On behalf of Christians in general, I wish to apologise to you for the "believer" that frightened you to death. Christianity is not intended to be that way. I'm not frustrated because I feel so incredibly certain...I get frustrated when some put down my faith using verses that they really did not read to see what it says...then accuse ME, personally of killing babies, or saying how horrid my faith is...when it isn't. Just like saying all who believe in Islam is bad....which, of course is not true.

Gotta run, I've asked several times now to put this subject away, tried to apologise for stirring things up, tried to ease out. Please, lets be friends...not adversaries.
For you Harumi...
<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Bests to all.
Ron

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: Bait ]</p>

Bait

Thank you.
Ron