Freethought & Rationalism Archive

crisisGirl · 09-06-2003, 05:04 PM

<rant>
this thread is completely irrelevant, so i'm posting it here, and it will probably be moved to "elsewhere" or something like that.

<bitch><moan>
i've recently been offered my first freelance job as a web developer. i've built web sites for a long time, and i build and maintain our web site at my office. the problem - i love love LOVE dreamweaver, and i can do some pretty awesome stuff in it, but i'm a crappy coder.

i can't properly code a table to save my life (keep screwing up measurements), and i'm so-so with CSS stylesheets. i've forgotten most of the ASP i know, which wasn't that much in the first place. i know that this guy wants a really cool site, and i can probably build the table for the site in frontpage at home, and code the rest by hand on his PC. i still run into problems with the fact that he wants some features that i don't know how to create. (i need to brush up on ASP, PHP, mySQL, JavaScript, and a whole bunch of other crap, including, and especially HTML!

i'm probably being overly critical here. i actually picked up on programming concepts pretty quickly when i was learning ASP, and we do have one of the best internal sites in our agency (according to my boss). i'm at that stage of techie mediocrity in which i'm better than most people and worse than most professional tech people. basically, i suck like a white house intern.

i really want to make a career out of this. (well -not web development. eventualy i'd like to do networking or software dev.) i have to be a tech person! i have no personality and i fear and repulse people in general! i can't be a crappy nerd!

is this normal pre-first-job jitters?

cG
</bitch></moan></rant>

sakrilege · 09-06-2003, 05:18 PM

I regularly work with technologies I'm novice in, what pulls me through is I do a web search on newsgroups dedicated to the technology and also search for websites hosted by 'gurus' in the field. For example, I recently needed to do some coding in Excel with templates. I was able to find almost the exact code snippet I needed in an Excel newsgroup. Using Google to search the newsgroups is the best option I have found since it lets you specify which groups to search. I also found several guru sites that had libraries of code snippets to do most things.

WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING
Do NOT post in any newsgroup with a real email address, it will be SPAM city if you do.

crisisGirl · 09-06-2003, 07:21 PM

thanks - i'll keep that in mind. i've got a starter cd for php/mysql, but i'm going to have to talk my boss into letting me study at work. (it only works on xp/2000 machines - dammit!)
on a side note:

<tantrum>
FRONTPAGE SUCKS!!!!
few things bite quite so hard as going back to frontpage version something or other from dreamweaver and fireworks mx!
</tantrum>

seebs · 09-06-2003, 09:07 PM

My understanding is that many people who are quite good at their jobs make it in a career for maybe ten or more years while still secretly feeling that everyone *else* knows what's going on, but they themselves are just "faking" it and trying to go through the motions. I tend to feel that way about geek stuff, and I'm pretty sure I'm actually good at this.

lisarea · 09-06-2003, 09:58 PM

I think the key to putting your own competence into perspective is talking to a few people who think they're competent.

Wing it. That's how I've learned just about everything I know, and I only discovered after the fact that I was being harder on myself than anyone else was. Don't actually SAY you know things you don't, but sorta make like you do a little. Get the best reference books you can find, and use them as much as you need to. Eventually, you'll find yourself referring to them less and less.

And you'll have to trust me on this, but if seebs feels incompetent at tech stuff, everybody should. He da man.

crisisGirl · 09-07-2003, 07:13 AM

thanks guys.

seebs, i think you hit the nail on the head! i think being a tech-newbie is about as close to bipolar disorder as i'm ever going to come in my life! there's a constant swing between self-loathing (read: i SUCK!) to delusions of grandeur (read: I AM THE GREATEST TECH PERSON WHO EVER LIVED!). the latter usually comes after solving a difficult ASP problem or learning something really cool - (e.g., the "ping" and "net" commands in DOS), and lasts for about 5 minutes.

i'm glad to know this problem isn't unique. i've already taken the "wing it" approach in this situation. i'm trying to learn to hand-code tables (did i mention i SUCK?!) and i'm doing a crash course in PHP/mySQL. come to think of it, the "wing it" approach worked pretty damn well at my current job. i didn't know what a broken link was when i started, and now i do (a little) scripting. there could be hope yet.

all things are possible through booze which strengthens me.

Heathen Dawn · 09-07-2003, 08:05 AM

Your resource for learning HTML here

Frontpage really sucks. The trouble with it is that it codes a lot of Microsoftisms. That may be all right for the majority who use Internet Explorer, but some (particularly Unixoids) use Netscape or Mozilla (or even Lynx; I use Lynx for testing my own web pages). Also, Frontpage doesn't leave your hand-coded HTML alone, it always reformats it with its usual junk formatting.

Be especially careful with smart quotes.

Defiant Heretic · 09-08-2003, 01:37 AM

Here's another resource that's indispensible for web design. It tests an html file for any problems with the code.

Godless Dave · 09-08-2003, 04:42 AM

I don't know what Dreamweaver costs, but if you are serious about going into business for yourself it would probably be worth it. You might be able to write it off your taxes as a business expense. Consult a tax expert.

nogods4me · 09-08-2003, 06:29 AM

Please keep this a secret, everybody I have ever met in the techie end of the business feels like they are behind the learning curve. But, and this is a big but, you don't need to know everything, you don't need to know the latest and coolest, all you need to know is more than they people hiring you. If the folks for whom you are designing a webpage don't know the difference between HTML and WKRP it won't make a damn bit of difference to them how much you know (or don't) they will think you are a genius just because you can make the comapny logo change colors when you move the mouse over it.

09-06-2003, 05:04 PM	#1
crisisGirl Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Atlanta JAWjuh Posts: 51	<gripe> a bad tech person </gripe> <rant> this thread is completely irrelevant, so i'm posting it here, and it will probably be moved to "elsewhere" or something like that. <bitch><moan> i've recently been offered my first freelance job as a web developer. i've built web sites for a long time, and i build and maintain our web site at my office. the problem - i love love LOVE dreamweaver, and i can do some pretty awesome stuff in it, but i'm a crappy coder. i can't properly code a table to save my life (keep screwing up measurements), and i'm so-so with CSS stylesheets. i've forgotten most of the ASP i know, which wasn't that much in the first place. i know that this guy wants a really cool site, and i can probably build the table for the site in frontpage at home, and code the rest by hand on his PC. i still run into problems with the fact that he wants some features that i don't know how to create. (i need to brush up on ASP, PHP, mySQL, JavaScript, and a whole bunch of other crap, including, and especially HTML! i'm probably being overly critical here. i actually picked up on programming concepts pretty quickly when i was learning ASP, and we do have one of the best internal sites in our agency (according to my boss). i'm at that stage of techie mediocrity in which i'm better than most people and worse than most professional tech people. basically, i suck like a white house intern. i really want to make a career out of this. (well -not web development. eventualy i'd like to do networking or software dev.) i have to be a tech person! i have no personality and i fear and repulse people in general! i can't be a crappy nerd! is this normal pre-first-job jitters? cG </bitch></moan></rant>

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09-06-2003, 05:18 PM	#2
sakrilege Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Folding@Home Godless Team Posts: 6,211	I regularly work with technologies I'm novice in, what pulls me through is I do a web search on newsgroups dedicated to the technology and also search for websites hosted by 'gurus' in the field. For example, I recently needed to do some coding in Excel with templates. I was able to find almost the exact code snippet I needed in an Excel newsgroup. Using Google to search the newsgroups is the best option I have found since it lets you specify which groups to search. I also found several guru sites that had libraries of code snippets to do most things. WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING Do NOT post in any newsgroup with a real email address, it will be SPAM city if you do.

09-06-2003, 07:21 PM	#3
crisisGirl Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Atlanta JAWjuh Posts: 51	thanks - i'll keep that in mind. i've got a starter cd for php/mysql, but i'm going to have to talk my boss into letting me study at work. (it only works on xp/2000 machines - dammit!) on a side note: <tantrum> FRONTPAGE SUCKS!!!! few things bite quite so hard as going back to frontpage version something or other from dreamweaver and fireworks mx! </tantrum>

09-06-2003, 09:07 PM	#4
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	My understanding is that many people who are quite good at their jobs make it in a career for maybe ten or more years while still secretly feeling that everyone else knows what's going on, but they themselves are just "faking" it and trying to go through the motions. I tend to feel that way about geek stuff, and I'm pretty sure I'm actually good at this.

09-06-2003, 09:58 PM	#5
lisarea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Broomfield, Colorado, USA Posts: 5,550	I think the key to putting your own competence into perspective is talking to a few people who think they're competent. Wing it. That's how I've learned just about everything I know, and I only discovered after the fact that I was being harder on myself than anyone else was. Don't actually SAY you know things you don't, but sorta make like you do a little. Get the best reference books you can find, and use them as much as you need to. Eventually, you'll find yourself referring to them less and less. And you'll have to trust me on this, but if seebs feels incompetent at tech stuff, everybody should. He da man.

09-07-2003, 07:13 AM	#6
crisisGirl Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Atlanta JAWjuh Posts: 51	thanks guys. seebs, i think you hit the nail on the head! i think being a tech-newbie is about as close to bipolar disorder as i'm ever going to come in my life! there's a constant swing between self-loathing (read: i SUCK!) to delusions of grandeur (read: I AM THE GREATEST TECH PERSON WHO EVER LIVED!). the latter usually comes after solving a difficult ASP problem or learning something really cool - (e.g., the "ping" and "net" commands in DOS), and lasts for about 5 minutes. i'm glad to know this problem isn't unique. i've already taken the "wing it" approach in this situation. i'm trying to learn to hand-code tables (did i mention i SUCK?!) and i'm doing a crash course in PHP/mySQL. come to think of it, the "wing it" approach worked pretty damn well at my current job. i didn't know what a broken link was when i started, and now i do (a little) scripting. there could be hope yet. all things are possible through booze which strengthens me.

09-07-2003, 08:05 AM	#7
Heathen Dawn Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,656	Your resource for learning HTML here Frontpage really sucks. The trouble with it is that it codes a lot of Microsoftisms. That may be all right for the majority who use Internet Explorer, but some (particularly Unixoids) use Netscape or Mozilla (or even Lynx; I use Lynx for testing my own web pages). Also, Frontpage doesn't leave your hand-coded HTML alone, it always reformats it with its usual junk formatting. Be especially careful with smart quotes.

09-08-2003, 01:37 AM	#8
Defiant Heretic Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,288	Here's another resource that's indispensible for web design. It tests an html file for any problems with the code.

09-08-2003, 04:42 AM	#9
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	I don't know what Dreamweaver costs, but if you are serious about going into business for yourself it would probably be worth it. You might be able to write it off your taxes as a business expense. Consult a tax expert.

09-08-2003, 06:29 AM	#10
nogods4me Contributor Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 17,432	Please keep this a secret, everybody I have ever met in the techie end of the business feels like they are behind the learning curve. But, and this is a big but, you don't need to know everything, you don't need to know the latest and coolest, all you need to know is more than they people hiring you. If the folks for whom you are designing a webpage don't know the difference between HTML and WKRP it won't make a damn bit of difference to them how much you know (or don't) they will think you are a genius just because you can make the comapny logo change colors when you move the mouse over it.

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