Freethought & Rationalism Archive

HoosierGuy28 · 10-25-2002, 08:02 AM

K,

Quote:

Didn't you say that you were a critical thinker? The previous statement certainly wouldn't indicate that.

Personal experience supersedes the need for critical thinking. Just like when you wake up in the morning. You don't need to critically think about how you're going to get to the bathroom and what method you're going to use to brush your teeth. You experience has incorporated this into your nature, and there is no longer any need for you to question it.

Quote:

I have no problems with your Christianity. I do object when you imply that it isn't necessary to abandon critical thinking to arrive at it.

I don't recall saying that there isn't any reason to conduct critical thinking, but I know I have implied that it should be limited.

Thanks for your response.

Joel

HoosierGuy28 · 10-25-2002, 08:08 AM

Ronin,

Quote:

Have you ever doubted any aspect of Christianity?

Honestly, yes. I've kept up with many of the arguments against Christianity, and at first glance, there have been a few that seemed to make a good argument. Of course, I went on to research these claims and found them to be lacking. Now I've reached the point in my life that I no longer feel the need to question Christianity.

Great question.

Joel

HoosierGuy28 · 10-25-2002, 08:21 AM

DigitalChicken,

Quote:

I'm an ex-Christian. As I stated the free will argument doesn't wash. This is not something I get to choose. You so conveniently ignored that part of the post.

It's not an argument, it is part of the doctrine of Christ. I do not post in this forum with the intention of arguing with people.

Quote:

I cannot make myself believe things. I cannot make myself believe that I can flap my arms and fly to the moon and I cannot make myself believe I have 12 fingers. Many if not most beliefs are not chosen.

I would have to disagree with this. I believe pretty much all beliefs are chosen. If someone tells you something, you have to chose whether to believe them or not. If you're watching the news and it tells you that someone was killed or that tomorrow will be sunny, you have to make a decision as to whether you think they are telling you the truth or not.

Wasn't it "War of the Worlds" or something like that where they gave a radio broadcast that the earth was being invaded by martians? If I recall, many people chose to believe it and they went into a panic. Of course, I'm sure there were at least some who decided not to believe it.

Oh yes, I got it right, it was "War of the Worlds". <a href="http://www.war-of-the-worlds.org/Radio/" target="_blank">http://www.war-of-the-worlds.org/Radio/</a>

Thanks for the post.

Joel

Ronin · 10-25-2002, 08:26 AM

Which were the best arguments against Christianity for you ~ at first glance, of course?

Now I've reached the point in my life that I no longer feel the need to question Christianity.

Yes, that quite reminds me of another who intentionally limited his use of critical thinking when he said:

"So tenaciously should we cling to the world revealed by the Gospel, that were I to see all the Angels of Heaven coming down to me to tell me something different, not only would I not be tempted to doubt a single syllable, but I would shut my eyes and stop my ears, for they would not deserve to be either seen or heard."

Mageth · 10-25-2002, 08:44 AM

hoosierGuy28:

Personal experience supersedes the need for critical thinking. Just like when you wake up in the morning. You don't need to critically think about how you're going to get to the bathroom and what method you're going to use to brush your teeth. You experience has incorporated this into your nature, and there is no longer any need for you to question it.

Interesting. My personal experience has been that there is no supernatural, no god. So by your argument there must no longer be any need for me to "question it." No critical thinking necessary on the subject any more, apparently.

Yet earlier, you said:

Personally, I don't see why people are so resistant to acknowledging God's existence.
...
Furthermore, the problem isn't a lack of evidence, but the fact that people refuse to see what they don't want to see.
...
I assure you, that if you seek God with an open-heart, you will find Him.

Do you claim that what you say about personal experience is true for christians but not for atheists?

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

HelenM · 10-25-2002, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronin:
<strong>Joel: Now I've reached the point in my life that I no longer feel the need to question Christianity.

Yes, that quite reminds me of another who intentionally limited his use of critical thinking when [...]</strong>

I have a couple of comments on this, fwiw...

It seems to me that there are many people here who no longer need to question whether Christianity is true. [Meaning, they are 100% certain it isn't, at this point]

So it seems to me they are in an analogous situation to Joel.

Have they too limited their use of critical thinking?

Moreover I'm not sure your quote (which I didn't quote back) really applies to Joel because the quote is about someone who shuts out anything that doesn't agree with his belief system. Do you have evidence that Joel is doing that? It seems rather to be the case that Joel has found satisfactory answers to any doubts he has had.

take care
Helen

Mageth · 10-25-2002, 08:52 AM

It's not an argument, it is part of the doctrine of Christ.

Bible verses to back this up?

Wasn't it "War of the Worlds" or something like that where they gave a radio broadcast that the earth was being invaded by martians? If I recall, many people chose to believe it and they went into a panic. Of course, I'm sure there were at least some who decided not to believe it.

To clarify, those that "chose" to believe it were the ones who tuned in after the broadcast had started and missed the disclaimer stating the broadcast was fiction. Those that heard the disclaimer didn't believe it.

Would they have chosen to believe it if they had heard the disclaimer? How many heard the disclaimer yet "chose" to believe it?

HelenM · 10-25-2002, 08:56 AM

p.s to my other post: OTOH I see the inconsistency in saying "I no longer need to question my beliefs. Why don't you question yours?"

But I think that cuts both ways

Helen

K · 10-25-2002, 09:20 AM

Joel:

Quote:

I believe pretty much all beliefs are chosen.

You could give us a demonstration by choosing not to believe this any more. That would be a much more powerful method of argument. Can you really just stop believing that all beliefs are chosen?

Marduk · 10-25-2002, 09:24 AM

This thread is getting really long
So I will ask some more questions:

"Yes, the "original sin" is part of Christian doctrine, which refers to the knowledge of good and evil at the apostasy of Adam."

This 'fall' business seems to be at the heart of a lot of the need for Christianity/forgiveness. Do you believe that Adam & Eve were real historical people? When and where was this, 6000 years ago there were plenty of other people alive on Earth, in the Americas, Egypt, China and such.

Were they cavepeople? cro-magnons? This is a big part of why many here don't buy the other stuff as well. I won't go into the Flood business or any of the other really hard to swallow stuff either. Just A & E will do. This whole story reeks of mythology (as do others).
If no A & E, no Original sin and everything else is suspect as well.

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10-25-2002, 08:26 AM	#214
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	Which were the best arguments against Christianity for you ~ at first glance, of course? Now I've reached the point in my life that I no longer feel the need to question Christianity. Yes, that quite reminds me of another who intentionally limited his use of critical thinking when he said: "So tenaciously should we cling to the world revealed by the Gospel, that were I to see all the Angels of Heaven coming down to me to tell me something different, not only would I not be tempted to doubt a single syllable, but I would shut my eyes and stop my ears, for they would not deserve to be either seen or heard."

10-25-2002, 08:44 AM	#215
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	hoosierGuy28: Personal experience supersedes the need for critical thinking. Just like when you wake up in the morning. You don't need to critically think about how you're going to get to the bathroom and what method you're going to use to brush your teeth. You experience has incorporated this into your nature, and there is no longer any need for you to question it. Interesting. My personal experience has been that there is no supernatural, no god. So by your argument there must no longer be any need for me to "question it." No critical thinking necessary on the subject any more, apparently. Yet earlier, you said: Personally, I don't see why people are so resistant to acknowledging God's existence. ... Furthermore, the problem isn't a lack of evidence, but the fact that people refuse to see what they don't want to see. ... I assure you, that if you seek God with an open-heart, you will find Him. Do you claim that what you say about personal experience is true for christians but not for atheists? [ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

10-25-2002, 08:52 AM	#217
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	It's not an argument, it is part of the doctrine of Christ. Bible verses to back this up? Wasn't it "War of the Worlds" or something like that where they gave a radio broadcast that the earth was being invaded by martians? If I recall, many people chose to believe it and they went into a panic. Of course, I'm sure there were at least some who decided not to believe it. To clarify, those that "chose" to believe it were the ones who tuned in after the broadcast had started and missed the disclaimer stating the broadcast was fiction. Those that heard the disclaimer didn't believe it. Would they have chosen to believe it if they had heard the disclaimer? How many heard the disclaimer yet "chose" to believe it?

10-25-2002, 08:56 AM	#218
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	p.s to my other post: OTOH I see the inconsistency in saying "I no longer need to question my beliefs. Why don't you question yours?" But I think that cuts both ways Helen

10-25-2002, 09:24 AM	#220
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	This thread is getting really long So I will ask some more questions: "Yes, the "original sin" is part of Christian doctrine, which refers to the knowledge of good and evil at the apostasy of Adam." This 'fall' business seems to be at the heart of a lot of the need for Christianity/forgiveness. Do you believe that Adam & Eve were real historical people? When and where was this, 6000 years ago there were plenty of other people alive on Earth, in the Americas, Egypt, China and such. Were they cavepeople? cro-magnons? This is a big part of why many here don't buy the other stuff as well. I won't go into the Flood business or any of the other really hard to swallow stuff either. Just A & E will do. This whole story reeks of mythology (as do others). If no A & E, no Original sin and everything else is suspect as well.

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