Philosoft

Good call, Family Man.

Luvluv, you're not the only one who gets to define "hope" for his own ends.

Eudaimonist

Bravo! That was very well put.

David Gould

First of all, a level of hope does not have that much influence on what I believe.

It is interesting to me that you paint hope as a reason to believe. This seems almost an admission that the main reason people believe in Christianity is because it makes them feel good. I have no problem with that, but it is hardly a good argument that it is in fact true.

Second, isn't this just a scaled down version of Pascal's Wager?

Third, while you may argue that atheism provides no hopes to counter those that Christianity provides, I counter that with the idea of Hell. While you do not believe in Hell, many Christians do. For them, they know that any non-Christian friends that die go to Hell. Not too much hope there that I can see. Atheists can be content in the knowledge that their dead friends are not suffering for eternity in Hell.

Fourth, while you may rely on your religion for hope, why assume that there are no other sources of hope for other people? And why assume that people find hope in the idea that they will meet their friends again after death in some undefined heaven where there is no sin and no sex, no beer, no soccer world cups, no politics, no pets, no swearing, no dreams, no change so nothing ot look forward to, nothing to discuss, no intellectual challenges, no art, no science...

Faced with an eternity like that, why would I have hope? What exactly would I be hoping for?

What exactly is the eternity you hope for and why do you think that such an eternity is the one you will actually get?

wordsmyth

If hope and belief are synonymous, would stating that "xians hope there is a God" be the same as stating "xians believe there is a God"?

I don't believe hope is illogical in the disease scenario. If only 1% survive the disease, then there is at least the certainty that some will survive. It is the certainty that 1% will survive that makes hoping you are one of them logical.

Just my $.02

Jayhawker Soule

Atheism also offers much less hope than past-life regression therapy.
Because, for some, the value of a proposition is not its placebo effect.

southernhybrid

Way to late for that luvluv.

I thought this was just a simple question as to how one's atheism has given one additional benefits.


Being an atheist also allows one to get sucked into silly debates with theists.

Koyaanisqatsi

Hope springs eternal...

It's Crosby who died young.

Clutch

Koy, that was just appalling.

The fact that it's funny is no excuse. No, wait -- yes it is, my mistake
.

Walter_Mitty

Luvluv: my 2 cents a day late and a dollar short…

Many religions offer reasons for not being afraid of death but I submit to you that this notion is a false hope. I have come to the hard-learned conclusion that religion fails to teach the adherent intellectual honesty and courage. Furthermore, nothing good comes out of a system that is based on fear—-I submit to you the historical evidence for all the religious-based wars and persecution as proof.

As for your question:

1) Considering that all propositions (religions, atheism, etc.) may be untrue, I would be inclined to assign degrees of probability to all of them and then pick that which you have evidence for—not what gives you unfounded hope or comfort. Furthermore, speaking for myself, I do not promise that atheism will give you as much hope as a system that abandons reason.

2) You say that atheism is a convenient belief of the intellectually privileged. I’ll concede you may have something there. But, based on my past personal experience of working in a treatment facility, I’ll tell you that many of the intellectually “under-privileged” turn to many things other than God to get through the day. Alcoholism and drug abuse are rampant in our “so-called” faith-based society despite religion’s power to provide so-called hope.

3) Also, an irony I often observed was that the various “step” programs that were taught to the abusers replaced alcohol and drugs with what is called “the higher power”. Considering the high recidivism rate I saw in the “underprivileged” that replaced harmful substances with this “higher power”, I often wondered if all that money would not have been better spent on educating the hopeless.

4) You seem to think that hope grounded in superstition—-when believed by millions—-makes it right for “them”. Well I would submit to you that just because millions of people think something makes them feel good (regardless of their educational level) does not necessarily make it good. Based on that kind of thinking, we just as well legalize all drugs and do away with seat belt and helmet laws because this might make some people feel good.

5) Hope grounded in the unfounded supernatural does not make a thing right, nor does it change facts. If I have a loved one who is dying from some disease; and, rather than seeking out the best medical experts that are available to me, I instead choose a faith healer based on the hope that religion gives me. Well, that brief amount of hope that religion *may* have given me does not change the facts when my loved one dies, nor does it make my choice right.

Why would we want to abandon Christianity for atheism? Because to allow yourself to entertain unfounded hopes as a means of avoiding fear is not living--it's mental slavery.

(edited about a million times!)

[ July 17, 2002: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]</p>

Icarus

Odemus,

I apologize for not getting back to you last night. Once luvluv skipped my post, I decided to call it a night. I've almost gotten used to that, being regularly ignored by many on this site, but not entirely. Perhaps I am not interesting or intelligent enough to post here.

Anyway, my deconversion occurred on two levels. On a larger scale I was seeking the personal relationship with God to which I've previously alluded. I engaged myself in searching the mind of God, connecting with him emotionally, and identifying with him through acts of love to others. On the more immediate scale, I was sifting through the concepts of love, justice, and soteriology when I came to my fatal impasse. I encountered an incompatibility between these three ideas as is presented in the Bible. I tried to shape my current faith around my new knowledge, but found the disconnect too fundamental a flaw. My theology disintegrated over a one year span. I took the latter six months off of work and school to focus my efforts and save my faith. I could not help what had become obvious to me, however, and in the end I made my peace.

I fought tooth and nail to hold on, but for me the truth is too powerful a force to deny. I did not want theism to be erroneous because I felt I needed its tenet to be true. I stand here today to witness that I did not need them. I am healthier, happier, and more fulfilled now that I lead a life of my own making--but this is not why I deconverted. If there is anyone who believes it is too emotionally taxing to deny God, that they could not bear to live without him, I want them to look at me. For I still am. If I can pull myself away, if I can learn to live in the now, rather than waste away pondering a future over which I exercise no control, then anyone can.

If you would like me to disclose the specific issues that eventually led me to today, I will be more than happy to comply. I will need more time, however. Thanks for taking an interest.

Icarus