Freethought & Rationalism Archive

crocodile deathroll · 12-16-2002, 08:06 PM

I only met only one Buddhist monk in my life and it came to a very big surprise to me that he was a hard atheist.
At the time I was a Xtian and he stated the essential between his religion and mine was a belief in the existance of a god.

Living Dead Chipmunk · 12-16-2002, 08:32 PM

Gurdur: *shrug* Yes, it's racism. I got tired of running my head into a brick wall and decided to fight fire with fire.

Seraphim: Yes, of course, how silly of me. East Timoor, North Korea, Kashmir, Thailand, and Vietnam are all paragons of unmarred Buddhist virtue. How could I have not seen it before?

Corgan Sow · 12-17-2002, 03:57 AM

Quote:

And I will change my mind (which I'm entitled to) once I see some positive moves from your society that you are willing to at least push in the right direction. Till then, your books doesn't mean much to me since making definations of Buddhism is useless since each person's defination depends on him or herself, not some "wiseman" from Cambridge or other Universities.

Uh, huh. And now you're down here telling people YOUR definition of being a Buddhist. What makes you different from those Western scholars you despise? What they are trying to do is just to bring the way of Enlightenment to the Masses. And what sort of theist are you worshipping a God who only reserves the Truth for the elite?

What is this topic about? Can a person be an atheist and a Buddhist at the same time? Or a topic to flaunt to everyone about our "superiority" of Asian humility and values? Choose one!

monkey mind · 12-17-2002, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim:
<strong>"Wow Sepharim. Not only is that view a speculation without any basis in reality, it's also ignorant and rascist. Everybody west of India is too impatient to learn Buddhism eh? Get a clue man. Your ignorance repeatedly betrays you on this forum. "

My reply : A view without any basis in reality? My view is from point of history of the Asian people, not something I simply stated.

From various aspects such as medicine, philosphy, science and Arts (among others), it is people of Asian region which brought new discoveries and developments and such tasks doesn't require brain power alone, it also needs higher spiritual strenghts such as celibacy, willingness to endure hardship and pain, willingness to let go what people in your society holds dear - wealthy and power and things such as that.

Your society didn't show much progress in such spiritial strenghts, I doubt it has any which required to learn and master such as Buddhism.</strong>

You've truly revealed yourself here. I'm sure you have a valid reason for all this bitterness towards the west. I myself have bitterness towards the west in many aspects.

However, you have proven that you are completely ignorant of this issue. You may continue to spew forth your opinions without any reasoning or evidence backing them up and you may continue to dispense with your unsolicited advice to anyone who is unfortunate enough to engage you in conversation. I myself see this endeavor as useless. Good bye.

[ December 17, 2002: Message edited by: monkey mind ]</p>

12-18-2002, 03:42 PM

"Seraphim: Yes, of course, how silly of me. East Timoor, North Korea, Kashmir, Thailand, and Vietnam are all paragons of unmarred Buddhist virtue. How could I have not seen it before? "

My reply : Explain please. Thank You.

By Corgan Sow

"Uh, huh. And now you're down here telling people YOUR definition of being a Buddhist. What makes you different from those Western scholars you despise? What they are trying to do is just to bring the way of Enlightenment to the Masses. And what sort of theist are you worshipping a God who only reserves the Truth for the elite?

My reply : Here's someone I wasn't expecting to hear from ...

My definition of being a Buddhist? And where did I said I was a Buddhist or given any defination of it? All I did so far was say what's in my mind and what I thought about some of the concepts of Buddhism.

What makes me different from the Westerners I "despise" so much? How about the fact that I don't care whether anyone listen to me or not? I say what I felt was true and that's all that matters. Others can ask for explainations of what I said or comment me if I said something they don't disagree, which either way is fine by me.

This could be different if you are in the West and you happened to be working for a few years in a certain feild and just published a book on a culture you have not much knowledge about other than reading about it or getting some firsthand experience or getting another person's view. It seems to be that in the West, if you happened to be a scholar, that means everything you say is taken as true.

Bring enlightnment to the Masses? Don't make me laugh. You said you were a Christian once, Corgan. I thought you know or at least understood by now. No one could bring Enlightnment to another person NOR bring salvation to another. You want it? Go and get it.

Theist? Hmmm ... that's your words which you use to understand some people or some concept you don't understand. Not everyone plays by your rules, Corgan.

"What is this topic about? Can a person be an atheist and a Buddhist at the same time? Or a topic to flaunt to everyone about our "superiority" of Asian humility and values? Choose one! "

My reply : How about "What does it takes for a Atheist to be a Buddhist?" as the topic title? Interesting concept, no?

By monkey mind

"You've truly revealed yourself here. I'm sure you have a valid reason for all this bitterness towards the west. I myself have bitterness towards the west in many aspects. "

My reply : All my reasons is state above in the qoute you supplied earlier, nothing more.

"However, you have proven that you are completely ignorant of this issue. You may continue to spew forth your opinions without any reasoning or evidence backing them up and you may continue to dispense with your unsolicited advice to anyone who is unfortunate enough to engage you in conversation. I myself see this endeavor as useless. Good bye."

My reply : Have a nice day.

Corgan Sow · 12-18-2002, 04:50 PM

My reply : Here's someone I wasn't expecting to hear from ...

My definition of being a Buddhist? And where did I said I was a Buddhist or given any defination of it? All I did so far was say what's in my mind and what I thought about some of the concepts of Buddhism.

You want people to get their own truth. Then, why are you 'sharing' in this topic for?! You want people to find their own enlightenment. Then, shut up! If your purpose in this topic is just sprouting off what is in your mind about Buddhism, I see you're doing otherwise. You're unhappy that Westerners here are doing Buddhism in ways that you didn't like, and your utter displeasure for them is obvious here. Why that utter contempt if you really do not care whether anyone listens to you or not. Your case is vice-versa. Maybe IMHO you're under schizophernic influence or something, so I won't further comment.

Your society didn't show much progress in such spiritial strenghts, I doubt it has any which required to learn and master such as Buddhism.

Tell me, what are qualities that this society os lacking? Or just infact Westerners are beginning to lose interest in God, practicing free sex and homosexuality? That's all?

This could be different if you are in the West and you happened to be working for a few years in a certain feild and just published a book on a culture you have not much knowledge about other than reading about it or getting some firsthand experience or getting another person's view. It seems to be that in the West, if you happened to be a scholar, that means everything you say is taken as true.

Don't make me laugh with this unproven assumption. Westerners here back up facts before posting statements like these. And for God's sake, Seraphim use that UBB code!

Bring enlightnment to the Masses? Don't make me laugh. You said you were a Christian once, Corgan.

Do not ad hominem me again. Focus on the topic, and less assault on a poster's character.

I thought you know or at least understood by now. No one could bring Enlightnment to another person NOR bring salvation to another. You want it? Go and get it.

Now this is really getting banal. For what Gautama preached his message to the Enlightenement? Might has well die all by himself and nobody knew his way to Enlightenment?

Theist? Hmmm ... that's your words which you use to understand some people or some concept you don't understand. Not everyone plays by your rules, Corgan.

The funny thing is, you seem to want people here to play by your rules, Seraphim.

My reply : How about "What does it takes for a Atheist to be a Buddhist?" as the topic title? Interesting concept, no?

Well, I would like to see if you will really stick to that topic and not divert from it.

Seriously, more and more posters here are sick and tired of your posts. Well, thank me because I'm always here to listen.

12-18-2002, 05:29 PM

"You want people to get their own truth. Then, why are you 'sharing' in this topic for?! You want people to find their own enlightenment. Then, shut up! If your purpose in this topic is just sprouting off what is in your mind about Buddhism, I see you're doing otherwise."

My reply : Why I'm here? Just to show that not everything that you know is the right thing and to learn what I may not have learn yet. Even a lie could be a truth if a group of people agreed to it.

"You're unhappy that Westerners here are doing Buddhism in ways that you didn't like, and your utter displeasure for them is obvious here. Why that utter contempt if you really do not care whether anyone listens to you or not. Your case is vice-versa. Maybe IMHO you're under schizophernic influence or something, so I won't further comment."

My reply : The way I like? I'm no Buddha, Corgan and neither are you. I have stated already that everyone is free to hear what I wish to say.

"Tell me, what are qualities that this society os lacking? Or just infact Westerners are beginning to lose interest in God, practicing free sex and homosexuality? That's all? "

My reply : Do you know how much spiritual strenght needed to leave ones' family and attachments and live a life in a humble way (including begging)? Even normal people who still lives a normal live with family and friends and attachments are encouraged to live live in a humble way so they won't get attached to desires. Do the West have such spiritual strenght?

As for losing interest in God, I can't say much since it is none of my business what you are interested in. As for free sex and homosexuality however, if the westerners ain't strong enough to do a simple thing such as devoiding sexual urges, how could they able to withstand the long, hard route in Buddhism?

"Don't make me laugh with this unproven assumption. Westerners here back up facts before posting statements like these. And for God's sake, Seraphim use that UBB code!"

My rely : Back up with facts? Maybe you can point out some "facts" behind some comments Westerners made out of Buddhism (or any other teaching of the East).

"Now this is really getting banal. For what Gautama preached his message to the Enlightenement? Might has well die all by himself and nobody knew his way to Enlightenment? "

My reply : You were a Christian once and you believe Jesus died for you, did that act brought you Salvation? In the end, you rejected the teaching simply because no one could answer your questions.

In that context (which is not an insult to you in anyway), Gautama simply taught of the road which one CAN take, whether such path is walked upon or not is strictly depends on individual character and strenght. In that context, Gautama is just a road signs along the highway, he doesn't bring salvation to you, you are the one to go and find it ... IF you are strong enough.

"The funny thing is, you seem to want people here to play by your rules, Seraphim. "

My reply : What rule? I never made any rule or seek others to follow what I said.

"Well, I would like to see if you will really stick to that topic and not divert from it. "

My reply : I never diverted my attention anywhere else since I started to post here.

"Seriously, more and more posters here are sick and tired of your posts. Well, thank me because I'm always here to listen. "

My reply : The moderators did advise you to e-mail to them personally before they shut down the thread you made, didn't they? Sounds fair to me.

Just remember that I only post in a few threads and not in all of them and even those I post in is something I'm familiar with.

Corgan Sow · 12-18-2002, 11:48 PM

Quote:

My reply : You were a Christian once and you believe Jesus died for you, did that act brought you Salvation? In the end, you rejected the teaching simply because no one could answer your questions.

Again you assumptions amuses me. I rejected Christ because his doctrines were flawed and destructive to Mankind. I said nothing about Christ's teachings being too difficult to follow. Sep, Islam and Christianity are cults, not religions. At least nowhere in Gautama's life where he preached about loving your enemies and then commanded a mass genocide towards his Opponents.

You claimed you read the Bible thrice. You understanding to me is pretty obvious that you never read it.

Quote:

My reply : The moderators did advise you to e-mail to them personally before they shut down the thread you made, didn't they? Sounds fair to me.

You did have your posts moderated before, I guess that made us equals, no?

andy_d · 12-19-2002, 08:57 AM

Come now Seraphim, Dharma is useful to all beings, not only those born in certain cultures or nations.

I'm concerned that your prejudice and animosity towards some of the Sangha could be damaging to yourself.

There may be some truth in what you say, much of western culture is, for instance, concerned with the "quick fix". However, Buddhism is spreading incredibly fast in the west, and many eastern teachers who travel to the west say how impressed they are with the progress made by western students. What better antidote to some of the illnesses of western society than the gentle wisdom of Buddhism?

Ask yourself, does your attitude actually help those in the west (or the east for that matter) to understand Dharma better, or is it likely to cause divisions?

Bree · 12-19-2002, 09:13 AM

Okay, so Westerners are evil.

What about Asians born in Asia, but living in the West? Does simply living in "these conditions" make learning impossible?

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12-16-2002, 08:06 PM	#71
crocodile deathroll Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Darwin Posts: 1,466	I only met only one Buddhist monk in my life and it came to a very big surprise to me that he was a hard atheist. At the time I was a Xtian and he stated the essential between his religion and mine was a belief in the existance of a god.

12-16-2002, 08:32 PM	#72
Living Dead Chipmunk Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 312	Gurdur: shrug Yes, it's racism. I got tired of running my head into a brick wall and decided to fight fire with fire. Seraphim: Yes, of course, how silly of me. East Timoor, North Korea, Kashmir, Thailand, and Vietnam are all paragons of unmarred Buddhist virtue. How could I have not seen it before?

12-18-2002, 03:42 PM	#75
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"Seraphim: Yes, of course, how silly of me. East Timoor, North Korea, Kashmir, Thailand, and Vietnam are all paragons of unmarred Buddhist virtue. How could I have not seen it before? " My reply : Explain please. Thank You. By Corgan Sow "Uh, huh. And now you're down here telling people YOUR definition of being a Buddhist. What makes you different from those Western scholars you despise? What they are trying to do is just to bring the way of Enlightenment to the Masses. And what sort of theist are you worshipping a God who only reserves the Truth for the elite? My reply : Here's someone I wasn't expecting to hear from ... My definition of being a Buddhist? And where did I said I was a Buddhist or given any defination of it? All I did so far was say what's in my mind and what I thought about some of the concepts of Buddhism. What makes me different from the Westerners I "despise" so much? How about the fact that I don't care whether anyone listen to me or not? I say what I felt was true and that's all that matters. Others can ask for explainations of what I said or comment me if I said something they don't disagree, which either way is fine by me. This could be different if you are in the West and you happened to be working for a few years in a certain feild and just published a book on a culture you have not much knowledge about other than reading about it or getting some firsthand experience or getting another person's view. It seems to be that in the West, if you happened to be a scholar, that means everything you say is taken as true. Bring enlightnment to the Masses? Don't make me laugh. You said you were a Christian once, Corgan. I thought you know or at least understood by now. No one could bring Enlightnment to another person NOR bring salvation to another. You want it? Go and get it. Theist? Hmmm ... that's your words which you use to understand some people or some concept you don't understand. Not everyone plays by your rules, Corgan. "What is this topic about? Can a person be an atheist and a Buddhist at the same time? Or a topic to flaunt to everyone about our "superiority" of Asian humility and values? Choose one! " My reply : How about "What does it takes for a Atheist to be a Buddhist?" as the topic title? Interesting concept, no? By monkey mind "You've truly revealed yourself here. I'm sure you have a valid reason for all this bitterness towards the west. I myself have bitterness towards the west in many aspects. " My reply : All my reasons is state above in the qoute you supplied earlier, nothing more. "However, you have proven that you are completely ignorant of this issue. You may continue to spew forth your opinions without any reasoning or evidence backing them up and you may continue to dispense with your unsolicited advice to anyone who is unfortunate enough to engage you in conversation. I myself see this endeavor as useless. Good bye." My reply : Have a nice day.

12-18-2002, 04:50 PM	#76
Corgan Sow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 1,537	My reply : Here's someone I wasn't expecting to hear from ... My definition of being a Buddhist? And where did I said I was a Buddhist or given any defination of it? All I did so far was say what's in my mind and what I thought about some of the concepts of Buddhism. You want people to get their own truth. Then, why are you 'sharing' in this topic for?! You want people to find their own enlightenment. Then, shut up! If your purpose in this topic is just sprouting off what is in your mind about Buddhism, I see you're doing otherwise. You're unhappy that Westerners here are doing Buddhism in ways that you didn't like, and your utter displeasure for them is obvious here. Why that utter contempt if you really do not care whether anyone listens to you or not. Your case is vice-versa. Maybe IMHO you're under schizophernic influence or something, so I won't further comment. Your society didn't show much progress in such spiritial strenghts, I doubt it has any which required to learn and master such as Buddhism. Tell me, what are qualities that this society os lacking? Or just infact Westerners are beginning to lose interest in God, practicing free sex and homosexuality? That's all? This could be different if you are in the West and you happened to be working for a few years in a certain feild and just published a book on a culture you have not much knowledge about other than reading about it or getting some firsthand experience or getting another person's view. It seems to be that in the West, if you happened to be a scholar, that means everything you say is taken as true. Don't make me laugh with this unproven assumption. Westerners here back up facts before posting statements like these. And for God's sake, Seraphim use that UBB code! Bring enlightnment to the Masses? Don't make me laugh. You said you were a Christian once, Corgan. Do not ad hominem me again. Focus on the topic, and less assault on a poster's character. I thought you know or at least understood by now. No one could bring Enlightnment to another person NOR bring salvation to another. You want it? Go and get it. Now this is really getting banal. For what Gautama preached his message to the Enlightenement? Might has well die all by himself and nobody knew his way to Enlightenment? Theist? Hmmm ... that's your words which you use to understand some people or some concept you don't understand. Not everyone plays by your rules, Corgan. The funny thing is, you seem to want people here to play by your rules, Seraphim. My reply : How about "What does it takes for a Atheist to be a Buddhist?" as the topic title? Interesting concept, no? Well, I would like to see if you will really stick to that topic and not divert from it. Seriously, more and more posters here are sick and tired of your posts. Well, thank me because I'm always here to listen.

12-18-2002, 05:29 PM	#77
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"You want people to get their own truth. Then, why are you 'sharing' in this topic for?! You want people to find their own enlightenment. Then, shut up! If your purpose in this topic is just sprouting off what is in your mind about Buddhism, I see you're doing otherwise." My reply : Why I'm here? Just to show that not everything that you know is the right thing and to learn what I may not have learn yet. Even a lie could be a truth if a group of people agreed to it. "You're unhappy that Westerners here are doing Buddhism in ways that you didn't like, and your utter displeasure for them is obvious here. Why that utter contempt if you really do not care whether anyone listens to you or not. Your case is vice-versa. Maybe IMHO you're under schizophernic influence or something, so I won't further comment." My reply : The way I like? I'm no Buddha, Corgan and neither are you. I have stated already that everyone is free to hear what I wish to say. "Tell me, what are qualities that this society os lacking? Or just infact Westerners are beginning to lose interest in God, practicing free sex and homosexuality? That's all? " My reply : Do you know how much spiritual strenght needed to leave ones' family and attachments and live a life in a humble way (including begging)? Even normal people who still lives a normal live with family and friends and attachments are encouraged to live live in a humble way so they won't get attached to desires. Do the West have such spiritual strenght? As for losing interest in God, I can't say much since it is none of my business what you are interested in. As for free sex and homosexuality however, if the westerners ain't strong enough to do a simple thing such as devoiding sexual urges, how could they able to withstand the long, hard route in Buddhism? "Don't make me laugh with this unproven assumption. Westerners here back up facts before posting statements like these. And for God's sake, Seraphim use that UBB code!" My rely : Back up with facts? Maybe you can point out some "facts" behind some comments Westerners made out of Buddhism (or any other teaching of the East). "Now this is really getting banal. For what Gautama preached his message to the Enlightenement? Might has well die all by himself and nobody knew his way to Enlightenment? " My reply : You were a Christian once and you believe Jesus died for you, did that act brought you Salvation? In the end, you rejected the teaching simply because no one could answer your questions. In that context (which is not an insult to you in anyway), Gautama simply taught of the road which one CAN take, whether such path is walked upon or not is strictly depends on individual character and strenght. In that context, Gautama is just a road signs along the highway, he doesn't bring salvation to you, you are the one to go and find it ... IF you are strong enough. "The funny thing is, you seem to want people here to play by your rules, Seraphim. " My reply : What rule? I never made any rule or seek others to follow what I said. "Well, I would like to see if you will really stick to that topic and not divert from it. " My reply : I never diverted my attention anywhere else since I started to post here. "Seriously, more and more posters here are sick and tired of your posts. Well, thank me because I'm always here to listen. " My reply : The moderators did advise you to e-mail to them personally before they shut down the thread you made, didn't they? Sounds fair to me. Just remember that I only post in a few threads and not in all of them and even those I post in is something I'm familiar with.

12-19-2002, 08:57 AM	#79
andy_d Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: umop apisbn Posts: 568	Come now Seraphim, Dharma is useful to all beings, not only those born in certain cultures or nations. I'm concerned that your prejudice and animosity towards some of the Sangha could be damaging to yourself. There may be some truth in what you say, much of western culture is, for instance, concerned with the "quick fix". However, Buddhism is spreading incredibly fast in the west, and many eastern teachers who travel to the west say how impressed they are with the progress made by western students. What better antidote to some of the illnesses of western society than the gentle wisdom of Buddhism? Ask yourself, does your attitude actually help those in the west (or the east for that matter) to understand Dharma better, or is it likely to cause divisions?

12-19-2002, 09:13 AM	#80
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Okay, so Westerners are evil. What about Asians born in Asia, but living in the West? Does simply living in "these conditions" make learning impossible?

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