Spaz

No thanks, I prefer cheddar and sour cream.

But really, I've though about it a lot and it seems to amount to people not knowing what the hell they were doing. Not only would they not know was good or evil was, they wouldn't know what death was either, seeing as there was no death before the fall and everything. It's a really stupid story, anybody that believes it really happened should get a good kick in the face. I mean really, what the hell?

DBrant

Yes, it was in fact Ernest Angley! I still can't help but watch him once in awhile (when I accidentally tune to Channel 55), although I think shows like that should have the words "for entertainment only" at the bottom of the screen.

There's one thing I never understood about him, though: if he can cure people of everything from back pain to blindness, why can't he ask Jesus for some real hair?

sakrilege

My mate's niece works in a hospital and has said that Ernest has been in for medical tests.

happyboy

well, see, God set adam and eve up! He didn't give them knowledge about anything remotely resembling morality, so how were they to know that eating the fruit was wrong? how were they to know what this nebulous thing called "death" was? they didn't know morality, so the concept of sin through disobediance wasn't even a blip on their (rather ignorant) radar.

so, God sets them up, lets satan come into the garden and tempt them, and then after they eat the fruit, God gets to blow up on them and curse the entire human race for the very act God set them up to do.

truth be told, i could never understand the justification for punishing an entire lineage just because two people screwed up. it's like saying, "my brother is a selfish asshole who only thinks of himself, so therefore, i will punish him and all his descendents unto the end of time."

a very confused happyboy

ReasonableDoubt

I've heard it said that Adam and Eve messed up simply by not obeying God. It wasn't necessary that they know "wrong" from "right", all that was necessary was to obey God. Since they did not, they suffered the consequences.

They may not have had the capability of moral reasoning, but they did have the capability of listening to God and doing what he said.

Sure they may not have known what death was, but God could have told them what it was, by saying "you shall die"- he could have told them what that entailed.

However, this still doesn't solve the problem of it being a setup from God.

BioBeing

Was the serpent really Satan? It doesn't say so in Genesis. When did God make the Angels? When did Satan fall from grace? Why did such a mean and petty god decide, as his punishment to Eve, to make childbirth more painful? (More painful than what? Had she had children before?)

So many questions, so little logic...

Fr.Andrew

Augustine took Adam and Eve's desire to hide their genitalia, as indication that that was the source of the first (original) sin that had so angered God. He went from there, to sexual intercourse--or, more accurately, sexual pleasure--being the means by which "original sin" is transmitted.
Original sin, to Augustine, was our inability to control ourselves when it comes to sex--which he felt to be manifest in passionate intercourse. And which, IMO, is the primary source of our Western culture's morbid attitude about sex.

Someone, I forget who, objected that if only the soul can sin--and if each soul is unique (i.e., not inherited)--then sin cannot be passed through the generations.

HelenM

Christians believe that Adam and Eve did know it was wrong to eat from the tree.

After they had actually done it they then knew about 'evil' in an experiential way which is different from what they knew before.

But they did know it was wrong (so Christians believe), yes.

They weren't ashamed before they'd sinned because they had nothing to be ashamed of, not having sinned. After they sinned they knew they had and were ashamed that they had.

You're entitled to your own opinion about that but it goes against what the Bible says about God's nature to suppose God would have made it easier to believe the serpent than Him. Your suppositions imply God is unfair. Of course Christians don't believe that.

This thread wasn't about sex, actually.

Why don't you start your own thread if you want to talk about sex?

Or would that make it seem too much like you have an agenda?

Helen

Fr.Andrew

(Helen M): Christians believe that Adam and Eve did know it was wrong to eat from the tree.
(Fr Andrew): You're avoiding the question. How did Adam and Eve know it was wrong to eat from the tree if they had no knowledge of good and evil until they did?

(Helen M): They weren't ashamed before they'd sinned because they had nothing to be ashamed of, not having sinned. After they sinned they knew they had and were ashamed that they had.
(Fr Andrew): Why would they associate sin and being ashamed of their genitalia?

(Helen M): Your suppositions imply God is unfair.
(God): "...for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation..." (Gen 20:5)

(Helen M): Of course Christians don't believe that.
(Fr Andrew): Of course not.

(Helen M): This thread wasn't about sex, actually.
(Fr Andrew): It was about Original Sin...which, according to the Christian fathers, particularly Augustine, is unavoidably tied to sex.
You sure seem to pick up on every mention of sex around here, don't you? Have you some agenda?

HelenM

They had no experiential knowledge of it but I don't see a basis for saying they knew too little to know that eating the fruit would be sinful.

Show me where it says they were ashamed of their genitalia in the Bible.

I don't have much knowledge of what the Christian fathers wrote.

It would be helpful if you'd quote Augustine's own words.

Hardly...that would be very difficult to do - there are so many!

I did look this morning to see whether you were still posting about sex.

Only to get you to admit to yours

Helen