Freethought & Rationalism Archive

wildernesse · 04-24-2003, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
Frankly I don't think there is anything we can do to prevent Theist hostility except convert or die.
They are taught to hate us from their days in the cradle. I remember antipathy towards Atheists being taught to me as a child by the Good Sisters. I've watch Billy Graham on TV drone on about the evils of Atheism and Atheists themselves. Respected Billy Graham the advisor of presidents. Had he used the words Jew or Black or Gay instead of Atheist they would have been marching in the streets. There's even a dictionary on my shelf that gives as one definition for the word atheist, "wicked."

Perhaps we should follow the example of the Blacks, Jews and Gays and not cave in to prejudice, as seems to be suggested in this thread, but to stand up proudly for our rights.

I realize that you may have given me up as a lost cause, but I have not been taught that. Why would I choose to marry an atheist if I hated him?

Please tell me how I condemn him by saying IF he feels like he needs forgiveness, I am sure that God would grant it and IF he doesn't then God will love him anyway. I believe this was the crux of your argument with me.

I'm sorry if I'm being incredibly dense, but I don't really understand.

--tibac

Edited to add: Biff, I don't have any hostility towards you.

beth · 04-24-2003, 07:04 AM

Hi Tibac,

I do not believe that all are taught this, but it is the case of my family and the case of many others here in the South. I am glad that you are comfortable enough in your faith to be accepting and tolerant of others. It seems to me that you are very loving and accepting of your husband's beliefs. I am happy for you because I think that your life must be free from the hatred and bigotry often associated with fundemental Christianity.

Beth

Starboy · 04-24-2003, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse
Please tell me how I condemn him by saying IF he feels like he needs forgiveness, I am sure that God would grant it and IF he doesn't then God will love him anyway. I believe this was the crux of your argument with me.

When you think about it this is all very funny. Wildernesse you are convinced that there is an uberbeing that controls the eventual fate of everything. You may or may not be passing judgment on anyone or anything but the religion you profess does claim that it will happen all the same. You may believe this if you like but it is hilarious just how blind you are to how offensive such belief in judgment can be. I know you can't help it, but it illustrates the OP very nicely.

Starboy

Rhea · 04-24-2003, 07:17 AM

But isn't she saying that the religion she believes does NOT pass judgment? "IF he doesn't then God will love him anyway". That says her religion doesn't pass judgment, only love.

I'll admit I personally don't think this is biblicly supported

but I don't think *HER* religion is passing judgment, as she wrote it.

wildernesse · 04-24-2003, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy
When you think about it this is all very funny. Wildernesse you are convinced that there is an uberbeing that controls the eventual fate of everything. You may or may not be passing judgement on anyone or anything but the religion you profess does claim that it will happens all the same. You may believe this if you like but it is hilarious just how blind you are to how offensive such belief in judgement can be. I know you can't help it, but it illustraites the OP very nicely.

Starboy

Please show me where I said God controls the eventual fate of everything? I am the religion I profess--and this, albeit small as I am small in the grand scheme of things, religion that I profess does not make such claims.

I think that any judgement comes from within us, if at all. If we condemn ourselves and ask forgiveness out of that self-condemnation, God will give us what we ask. If we don't, I don't know that it matters in the sense that God loves us always.

I'm glad that I'm hilarious--I hope I've made your day.

--tibac

Starboy · 04-24-2003, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhea
But isn't she saying that the religion she believes does NOT pass judgment? "IF he doesn't then God will love him anyway". That says her religion doesn't pass judgment, only love.

I'll admit I personally don't think this is biblicly supported but I don't think *HER* religion is passing judgment, as she wrote it.

Rhea, perhaps he/she is saying that, but what causes me to think that his/her belief or faith contains judgment is the statement "I am sure that God would grant it". If he/she believed as you think he/she does such a statement would not be necessary, or he/she would have said something to the effect "god doesn't judge". I may be reading far more into the sentence than is warranted. Let's see what wilderness has to say if anything.

Starboy

wildernesse · 04-24-2003, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by blondegoddess
Hi Tibac,

I do not believe that all are taught this, but it is the case of my family and the case of many others here in the South. I am glad that you are comfortable enough in your faith to be accepting and tolerant of others. It seems to me that you are very loving and accepting of your husband's beliefs. I am happy for you because I think that your life must be free from the hatred and bigotry often associated with fundemental Christianity.

Beth

I appreciate your kind words, Beth. I am not a fundementalist Christian, although I was raised in a fundementalist church and my family would probably be classified as fundementalists. Christianity has always been an empowering and loving religion for me, and I am very sorry that other people have not shared in this in their exposure to Christianity.

--tibac

wildernesse · 04-24-2003, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy
Rhea, perhaps she is saying that, but what causes me to think that her belief or faith contains judgment is the statement "I am sure that God would grant it". If she believed as you think she does such a statement would not be necessary, or he/she would have said something to the effect "god doesn't judge". I may be reading far more into the sentence than is warranted. Let's see what wilderness has to say if anything.

Starboy

I said in some previous posts that forgiveness is what I think of as a human need, not a God-demand. He loves us always, and will love us even if we close ourselves off from the outside "world". If/when we choose to open ourselves back up to the "world", we might feel sorry that we ever closed ourselves up in the first place. In that case, if we asked for forgiveness, I believe that God would grant that because we think we need it, not because it's a condition of fully opening ourselves back up to his love.

Like the man with a prodigal son, when the son returned and confessed/apologized/asked forgiveness it was out of the son's heart and not out of the father's demand. Actually, it doesn't even seem important--before the son even gets the words out of his mouth, his father has run to him and kissed him, welcoming him back. Luke 15 NSRV

--tibac

Edited to add: "world" means God's love, humanity, good things, etc. It could include bad things as well, I guess. Also, please note that "we" only means me, as I have no real knowledge of how anyone else truly feels, thinks, believes, etc.

Starboy · 04-24-2003, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse
I said in some previous posts that forgiveness is what I think of as a human need, not a God-demand. He loves us always, and will love us even if we close ourselves off from the outside "world". If/when we choose to open ourselves back up to the "world", we might feel sorry that we ever closed ourselves up in the first place. In that case, if we asked for forgiveness, I believe that God would grant that because we think we need it, not because it's a condition of fully opening ourselves back up to his love.

Like the man with a prodigal son, when the son returned and confessed/apologized/asked forgiveness it was out of the son's heart and not out of the father's demand. Actually, it doesn't even seem important--before the son even gets the words out of his mouth, his father has run to him and kissed him, welcoming him back. Luke 15 NSRV

--tibac

Edited to add: "world" means God's love, humanity, good things, etc. It could include bad things as well, I guess. Also, please note that "we" only means me, as I have no real knowledge of how anyone else truly feels, thinks, believes, etc.

So the long and short of it is you say god does not judge at all?

Jamie_L · 04-24-2003, 08:14 AM

Still off track. Apologies to the thread.

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath
I do not believe that any gods exist because I have not seen a proof of the existence of any particular god.

Okay. Then by implication, you disagree with those who claim they have proof sufficient for belief.

Jamie

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04-24-2003, 07:04 AM	#162
beth Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: where orange blossoms bloom... Posts: 1,802	Hi Tibac, I do not believe that all are taught this, but it is the case of my family and the case of many others here in the South. I am glad that you are comfortable enough in your faith to be accepting and tolerant of others. It seems to me that you are very loving and accepting of your husband's beliefs. I am happy for you because I think that your life must be free from the hatred and bigotry often associated with fundemental Christianity. Beth

04-24-2003, 07:17 AM	#164
Rhea Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Recluse Posts: 9,040	But isn't she saying that the religion she believes does NOT pass judgment? "IF he doesn't then God will love him anyway". That says her religion doesn't pass judgment, only love. I'll admit I personally don't think this is biblicly supported but I don't think HER religion is passing judgment, as she wrote it.

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