Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Goliath · 10-09-2002, 07:41 AM

GeoTheo,

Quote:

You really do believe in God. You're simply lying.

If you were only addressing Jamie_L's OP, then can you please back up this unfounded assertion?

On the other hand, if you were addressing atheists in general, then you are absolutely incorrect, as I do not believe that any god whatsoever exists.

Sincerely,

Goliath

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Goliath ]

Jamie_L · 10-09-2002, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:
I think you have to want to believe to believe.

So, in effect, you are saying that our hypothetical atheist has acted in error because he is behaving rationally. Although he made an honest error in examining the world, he is at fault because he did not first believe something for which he had no reason to believe. Examining the validity of a proposition before deciding on its merit is not what God wants. God wants us to accept a proposition without knowing its merit, and await validation of that choice somewhere down the road. Do you believe God really values such irrationality?

Quote:

Someone hit on it earlier that some poeople are unwilling to step out and engage God with that small amount of Faith that is required to initially believe.

Yet, some of us (perhaps most of us) feel that we did honestly take that step. In fact, many of us did believe at one point. Yet, the validation after-the-fact did not come. In fact, just the opposite. Do you believe this is still all due to a conscious choice we made? What choice?

Getting back to the questions in my OP. If God is omnipotent, and God wants people to believe, why do some believers stop believing? Is God unable to show these believers the truth? Or is he able, but chooses not too?

Jamie

Jamie_L · 10-09-2002, 08:27 AM

agapeo:

I'm not ignoring you. To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make. While I do appreciate brevity, I'm afraid I'm having some difficulty deciphering the message in your short responses.

NOGO:

Perhaps you are right. But I'm enjoying the back-and-forth. If there was no one around to engage on the other side of the arguement, it wouldn't be much fun. But thanks for the words of advice.

Jamie

agapeo · 10-09-2002, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by Jamie_L:

Quote:

agapeo:

I'm not ignoring you.

Thanks for saying so. Still, if you do choose to ignore me I won't get my feelings hurt. It could be as you indicate here:

Quote:

To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make.

That's an honest response that I respect. What exactly should I clarify?

Quote:

While I do appreciate brevity,

I try to limit my time online and the depth of my involvement in ongoing discussions. So I intentially try to be brief. But as you stated brevity does have it's drawbacks.

Quote:

I'm afraid I'm having some difficulty deciphering the message in your short responses.

I thought the questions were pretty straight-forward and only required what I considered simple and straight-forward answers. Didn't think you expected more. But I guess I was wrong.

Jamie_L · 10-09-2002, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by agapeo:

I thought the questions were pretty straight-forward and only required what I considered simple and straight-forward answers.

Oh, each individual comment was straight-forward. I guess taking them together I couldn't figure out whether you were agreeing with me, disagreeing, or just making commentary.

Jamie

NOGO · 10-09-2002, 05:00 PM

Quote:

GeoTheo
I think it is quite possible that for you at this time God is a "dead hypothesis." Which means you have no use for God. That doesn't mean you won't have a need for Him in the future.
I think you have to want to believe to believe. The will does get involved. Someone hit on it earlier that some poeople are unwilling to step out and engage God with that small amount of Faith that is required to initially believe.
At this time you see no reason to do so and so don't. God won't force you. No one can prove He is not there and no one can prove He is. But I doubt anyone remains neutral on the subject their whole life. Our brains are not so powerful that it is a good idea to continually hold out for more knowlwdge. It may never come. One needs to eventually act and make a decision. You will eventually reach a point where it can be true to say you have rejected God.

"I think you have to want to believe to believe."
Spoken like a true man of faith.
When I was young I remember when the teacher showed me how the earth rotated around the sun and how the seasons came to be. It also explained why days are longer in the summer etc. It all made sense and matched exactly what can be readily observed.
I believed.
Now suppose that the teacher told me that the earth was flat because the bible said so and I doubted. Imagine being told then that you need to want to believe before you believe? How much nonsense can one take.

Even if one day I am on my deathbed and I am desperate to believe in God. I could not. My human weaknesses cannot make God exist. And even if I would finally break down and believe it will only prove that belief in God comes from fear and not reason.

GeoTheo does not make the distinction between his feelings, what he wants and the reality out there. When assessing facts you simply do not mix your wishes with it.

One final thing.
Not believing in God does not mean rejecting God.
That is total nonsense. GeoTheo was trying a different approach here but he slipped at the end. The "guilt" approach always seems to come back.

What I reject is not God but GeoTheo's mythology which he seems to love soooo much.

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

NOGO · 10-09-2002, 05:12 PM

Notice how GeoTheo has ignored completely the point of this thread. He is enganged in preaching and not reasoning.

10-10-2002, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:

You really do believe in God. You're simply lying.

You choose not to follow God because you do not like the implications of choosing to follow Him.

Tell me, Geo, did the countless skeptics who were tortured and burned at the stake by your predecessors during the dark ages secretly believe in your god? Were they just being stubborn about it?

Were the native Americans who inhabited this continent for thousands of years before Columbus arrived lying when they told your missionaries that they didn't believe your wacky story about a god who was nailed to a cross?

Do the fundamentalist Muslims who routinely blow themselves to pieces in the name of Allah really know deep down inside that Jesus Christ is the the One True Lord and Savior?

Do the Dalai Lama and his millions of devoted followers also know that Jesus is Lord? Are they just being obstinate about accepting Him? Are they lying when they say that they believe Jesus was just a man?

Does the nice old Jewish lady who lives on my block reject Jesus because she doesn't like the implications of following Him? (BTW, is she going to fry in Hell when she dies?)

Are ALL of the 4.5 billion non-Christians on this planet lying when they say that they reject your religion, your bible, and your god?!

[ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]

agapeo · 10-10-2002, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L:


Oh, each individual comment was straight-forward. I guess taking them together I couldn't figure out whether you were agreeing with me, disagreeing, or just making commentary.

Jamie

Perhaps a little of all three. Although I don't think I was disagreeing with ya that much.

What I was actually doing is making for conversation. It usually goes like this: Someone asks a/some question/s (You). Someone else (Me) listens and thinks about what is being said. For the sake of grasping exactly what is being asked it helps (Me) to ask (You) a few questions in reply. So, even though it could be said that most of what I posted was commentary you might have noticed that there was a few lead-in questions. I may have answered the same ones myself, but I was more interested in your answers. That seems to be the nature of conversation IMO. You ask, I listen. I answer and ask a few questions myself to see where you're coming from and if you take the time to answer those then one thing leads to another. Or perhaps it doesn't.

Jamie_L · 10-10-2002, 08:49 AM

agapeop:

Alright. Back to your questions:

Quote:

Why should you [believe]?

Well, I shouldn't. But if God were real and almighty and wanted me to believe, I would expect that I would.

Quote:

Are you complaining [about not creating my personality?

If I'm going to be judged for all eternity based on it, then yes, I am complaining.

Quote:

True! But you do have control over what program you watch.

Well, I can choose between them. But I don't have much say in the choices offered.

Quote:

Have you ever seen the picture that shows how different we can perceive things? It's the picture where to one person the woman looks like a high-society Lady and to another person it looks like an old hag.

Okay. Now, if the person who drew the picture claimed to want everyone to see a picture of a high-society lady, wouldn't you wonder why he made a picture that some people think looks like a hag? Especially if he's an omnipotent artist?

Quote:

Don't you know [if you are deficient]?

I don't know if other people think I'm deficient in this specific instance. Hence the question.

Quote:

We're all dealt cards from the same deck.

Yeah, but some cards are high and some cards are low. Should the dealer blame me if I get low cards, especially when the dealer decided what cards to put in the deck?

Quote:

Maybe God likes you better as an atheist

If so, then a) I shouldn't be punished for it, and b) a whole lot of theology crubles.

And also:

Quote:

Why do our children grow up to be other than we wish or would want? Why don't they listen to and follow our instructions? Why do they think they know better than us?

Because I'm not omnipotent or omnisicent?

Jamie

[ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie_L ]

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10-09-2002, 08:27 AM	#23
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	agapeo: I'm not ignoring you. To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make. While I do appreciate brevity, I'm afraid I'm having some difficulty deciphering the message in your short responses. NOGO: Perhaps you are right. But I'm enjoying the back-and-forth. If there was no one around to engage on the other side of the arguement, it wouldn't be much fun. But thanks for the words of advice. Jamie

10-09-2002, 05:12 PM	#27
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	Notice how GeoTheo has ignored completely the point of this thread. He is enganged in preaching and not reasoning.

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