seebs

Topic drift isn't a problem, is it?

I don't think Bodhisattvas are "gods". They're supernatural entities, yes, but I don't think they fit in the "god" spot in theology.

Godless Dave

I've read just a little of Buddha's writings, and he seemed to imply that gods existed (unless he was using them as a literary construct), but they weren't important to his philosophy. If anything worship of gods was an impediment to acheiving Nirvana. So might say that Buddhists may or may not believe in gods, but they don't worship them.

Of course, what the founder of a religion says and what his followers practice are two very different things, as we well know!

Secular Elation

Same as your hand burning is an unpleasent consequence of the way God keeps enforcing physics even when it hurts us. I don't see it as being the same class of thing.

The example of burning my hand is my own fault (say, if I mishandled food in the microwave). If I had been careful, I might have escaped the burn. However, the example of Hell is different. It is god who is responsible for sending me to Hell, because of whatever reason he was displeased with me (in this case, disbelief). But Hell sure seems like a really despicable place. For this god to send me there for eternity simply for not submitting to him or believing in him is terribly unjust. You may say that I can avoid Hell if I believe in him, but that is precisely why I don't in the first place because of all the problems I have with that religion.

God sending me to Hell is the same thing as a criminal being sent to prison. It is punishment.

Anunnaki

Sometimes it`s next to impossible to figure out what Seebs is talking about,but I think I got it this time.

I think what he`s saying is that it`s your fault for getting yourself into Hell. God gives you the choice and it`s up to you to decide if you`ll have Gods "vile, evil, hateful physics" burn you or not.

He`s operating on the idea that Hell isn`t really a punishment since no one is forcing you to go there. You have the choice just like you have the choice to hold your hand in the fire or not.

It`s still a punishment though no matter how he tries to rationalize it. It`s like saying prison isn`t a punishment because I had the choice to follow the rules and not kill a man.

Seebs seems to be in a world of his own on this one,but this is not surprising coming from a guy who said he`s hard pressed to find anything even somewhat distastful about Christianity.
(I think this was in the "How many years did you waste?" thread)

Secular Elation

He`s operating on the idea that Hell isn`t really a punishment since no one is forcing you to go there. You have the choice just like you have the choice to hold your hand in the fire or not.

Ah, but god would be forcing me. It is god himself that decides if I go to Hell or not. Whether or not I decide to believe in him may influence his decision, but that is precisely why I think it is terribly unjust of him to send me to eternal damnation because I find him and his religion to be bunk!

"Sorry, god, but I just didn't believe in you because you should've done a better job crafting your religion and revealing yourself."

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: Secular Elation ]</p>

Mageth

Seebs, atheism is lack of belief in gods. Lower case, plural. This includes all supernatural gods, big or small, worshipped or not. (that's my opinion, anyway).

Anunnaki

I agree. God is the judge,jury,executioner and plaintiff in the case of you going to Hell or not. Not only that,but he built the prison (Hell) himself and then layed out the law saying that you either believe or fry.

Maybe this all looks good,fair and logical with Christian colored glasses? Maybe seebs isn`t bothered by this since he has decided to swallow it all hook,line and sinker and behave perfectly in accordance to the rules and regulations of his ancient dogma.
He`s going to Heaven for loving God and and following the "teachings" of Jesus the Christ. What does he care about Hell and punishment?

Seebs,
Could you please start a new thread to explain to us why you have chosen Christianity over all other religions and forms of worship.
I`m sure many of us would like to hear your reasons for signing up as well as why you think the basic claims of your religion (virgin birth,resurrection,concept of Heaven and Hell,etc) have any basis in reality.

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]</p>

seebs

I just don't find myself able to agree. Having your hand burn horribly is, indeed, an awful thing - but it's not *punishment* that this happens if you stick your hand in an open flame.

I don't happen to think that "disbelief", in the sense that most people experience it, is enough to qualify you for hell. It's active rejection, and it's very hard to reject something you don't know or understand.

I still say, either way, it's not *punishment*. Punishment is something designed to add a penalty to something to keep you from doing it, because otherwise you would. Logically-inevitable consequences can't be considered "punishment".

seebs

I believe this is not a very good explanation of the belief system.

If I refuse to study or learn anything, am I being "punished" when I end up ignorant?

Actually, the question fascinates me, I just don't worry a lot, because it seems to me that worrying about punishment is, itself, immoral; I might worry about the consequences of my actions, but in a case where I really can't evaluate them, I am obliged to stick with what I *CAN* evaluate, which is what effects I appear to have on the lives of those around me.

I could try, but it be a long thread. I'm not sure I have either the time or the emotional strength to go waving a red flag quite that big in front of this many bulls, especially in a context where it's pretty clear that the primary response will be attacks. Still... Yeah, I can do that. Not tonight, I have to go to a friend's birthday party. Possibly late tonight, possibly tomorrow.

To a certain extent, there are parts where I really can't offer a "reason", any more than I can tell you why I love cats. It is sufficient for me to know that I seem to be happy when I have cats, and that I think they're cute; I can't necessarily analyze it successfully, but in the end, that belief has changed my life more than many peoples' lives are changed by their religion.

seebs

But what exactly do you mean by "a god"? If I believe that, for twenty-four hours after a pet dies, its "spirit" is still around, and can be communicated with, would you call that a "god"?

I don't think atheism implies materialism, but I do grant that I'm not clear on exactly which things must not be part of a belief system for it to be called "atheism". I might start a thread on this later, it's a hard question, and one I haven't adequately considered.

(BTW, I have no such beliefs about pets. I have no idea whether or not they have souls, but I have no reason to believe that they have souls which last precisely 24 hours after the death of the body.)