HelenM

The following isn't 'karma' that I'm aware of but the nature of human relationship dynamics is that people you treat well are more likely to treat you well in turn and people you treat backly are more likely to treat you badly in turn.

That's a way that what you give comes back to you, which is easily verified.

Helen

Jamie_L

I would like to believe in karma.

If I were to become a supernaturalist, this is where I would start. Karma, as a supernatural concept, would be a great thing. A good basis for a supernatural universe.

Unfortunately, like most supernatural explanations for the universe, Karma conflicts with reality. Too bad.

Jamie

Amaranth

Uhh...huh? When have I bothered to show that? Why in the world would I try?

My assertion - Classic causality is bunk.

Your assertion(s) - There is a "Universal Principle of Justice." QM *must* include this principle, otherwise 50% of the "real world" is left out. The universe is an ordered place.


You claim that QM is bunk for some very odd reasons. Perhaps you would like to get around to defending those reasons, instead of just asserting them. I'm *especially* interested in the "Universal Principle of Justice." Care to start there?

Volker.Doormann

No. The theme is Karma, not QM. Thank You.

lugotorix

Actually, karma (at least in the Buddhist version that I believe) is not a supernatural concept. The Buddha said "It is intention, O monks, that I call karma. Having willed, one acts through body, speech, or mind." It's not meant as some force acting external to your mind. If you repeatedly act with an intention to be kind, you become kinder. This predisposes you to act kindly in the future. Being argumentative and insulting will also predispose you to act that way in your future.

A Theravadin monk, Thanissaro Bhikkhu, puts it like this:
Yeah, maybe if you look in the world, you can find examples of nasty people having great lives and good people struggling, but you're misapplying the theory of karma. It's not meant as a drop-in replacement for the Abrahamic belief in divine judgment. It's a tool for improving your own mental ecology, for taking resposibility for your own mental state.

lugotorix

BioBeing

As opposed to the guy a few weeks ago who tried to hi-jack my minivan, which only had 3 kids in it at the time... luckily, he realized, and ran, not drove, away.

But if karma/universal justice were real, wouldn't EVERYONE who tried to hijack a minivan get the shit kicked out of him every time? Otherwise, it tends to look more like a random event.

Jamie_L

lugotorix:

Thanks for the education, and actually, that makes a lot of sense, and is something I've held to be true for a while.

I always assumed the mainstream Western use of the word Karma was the supernatural one (that's what people told me it meant). Have I been misinformed, or do most of the people who talk about Karma mean it in the (incorrect) sense that I always have?

Jamie

lugotorix

It's hard to say. Even in ancient India there were conflicting theories about karma, most of which did involve supernatural elements. When the idea came west, all the different versions got jumbled up. I know that among my new-ager friends, karma is concieved of in the way you described it, or as a type of predestination. The alternative I presented is more of a modern Buddhist approach. For me it makes more sense.

That being said, even among western Buddhists, I know of quite a few that take a more supernatural, many-lives view of karma. It's not strictly necessary, though.

lugotorix

Amaranth

QM is perfectly relevent when you base your assertions about the existance of karma off of faulty science. You're going to have to dodge a bit more artfully than that, I fear.

So, again, how does that Universal Principle of Justice work, and why does it disqualify QM?

Radcliffe Emerson

I don't believe in anything spiritual.
Well except maybe a shot of rum every now and then!