Theli

Luvluv...

Are you suggesting that the people who lives such areas (drug-wars) would be just as "evil" if they had been born elsewhere?
People there are a product of the society they live in. I wouldn't call them "evil"

[ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: Theli ]</p>

DRFseven

I agree with you here, luvluv; I think it is historically borne out that the more destitute and hopeless the life situation, the more religious those who endure it tend to be. Look at countries where the people have been starving since anyone can remember...look at the poorest and the least educated in any country....look at prison and death-row conversions. And, most compellingly, look at the elderly, who generally tend to become more religious toward the end.

So, even though you continue to deny the fact that we do not orchestrate our beliefs since we merely find reasons compelling or not according to our world-views, I agree with you about the practical outcome. Most people are socialized to believe there is a "purpose" in life; if there is a purpose, then it stands to reason there must be something or someone that "purposes" or intends something because, after all, life can't want something by itself. If that something is God, the reasoning goes, then the purpose must be something lofty; not misery and squalor; why would misery be the purpose of anthing? The lofty life must lie elsewhere, where the reason for all the suffering will become apparent and make sense - in the spiritual realm where heaven and eternity await.

rainbow walking

Folks, I never offered my theory as a good reason to worship God, I offered it as a partial explanation of why people in depressed circumstances would not readily convert to atheism.


rw: Convert? Are you presupposing these folks are all theists?

Your vaugely optimistic appeals to the goodness of human nature and to mankinds ability to solve problems are not going to work with someone who lives in a neighborhood in which teenagers are regularly shot to death.

rw: Sure it will. Get them out of such a neighborhood and try it.

If that's not plainly evident to you from the outset than I doubt anything I can say will add to it. I encourage you to go to South Central and witness life there for a few weeks and ask yourself why anyone there would have any reason to believe in the inevitable goodness of man.

rw: Is anyone there a prisoner? Don’t they have the freedom to leave there? Or make an effort to change their neighborhood?

Their entire history is a political and economic study of why men are inherently self-seeking and untrustworthy. (Ever read a book called Black Rage by Grier and Cobbs? It's instructive on this issue. It's a psychological case study explaining why blacks tend to be less trustful of institutions).

rw: Atheism is not an institution.

Bottom line, it's fine for all you folks who eat three-squares a day and who live in neighborhoods where there is no gang-banging to believe in the goodness of mankind. To people who live in the middle of drug wars, such an ephemeral notion of human goodness is hourly disproven. They might require something a bit more substantial.

rw: Yeah, like getting the hell out of those neighborhoods.

(In fact, a belief in the goodness of people is an excellent way to get taken in and/or killed in most ghettos. Trusting people don't last long in those kinds of neighborhoods. Suckers are quickly identified and exploited.)

rw: No one has advocated that a belief in man represents a suspension of one’s judgment. All things must be tested.

Again, that's not a good reason to believe in God, but it's a good explanation as to why they would not be very open to atheism. It is, to a certain extent, a priviledged faith.

rw: Then you are claiming that these people are all theists who would not be open to atheism? If your assessment of their situation is correct, they certainly have a peculiar way of demonstrating their theism. Atheism doesn’t require faith…just a dedication to reason.

Koyaanisqatsi

How do you "convert" to a lack of beliefs?

Would these be the same neighborhoods where a single mother's primary means to keeping her sons off drugs and out of gangs is prayer?

Where the vast majority of families are christian?

As Clutch pointed out, you might not want to hide behind the argument from evil on this one.

How convenient for you.

Don't actually argue your position and support it in any way, just declare fallacies and then chastise us for not accepting them.

Quite right, considering the majority there have been indoctrinated in christianity.

You might have a compelling argument if the majority of the people you're generalizing were all atheists, I suppose, but as you well know that's not the case.

So if you wouldn't mind--while you're using that broad South Central brush--explain how it is that you god has failed arguably some of his most fervent and honest (and desperate) believers so blatantly?

Atheism is not a religion of any kind. It is simply the lack of belief in a god or gods. In other words, there is no "it" to offer anything, really, so, again, let's put the focus on the real problem, yes?

Such a bill of goods being sold to these kids by their own family that does absolutely nothing whatsoever to stop any of those bullets or help them get off drugs or out of gangs or anything at all beyond sending their parents farther into denial land!

How dare you bring up South Central as an example against a lack of belief in gods when you're talking about a community who has historically and traditionally been the most avid believers ion christianity and that belief has done nothing to help them and arguably everything to keep them exactly where they are.

After all, aren't they blessed for their suffering? Won't they "inherit the Earth?"

Luvluv,, don't get me wrong, I sense that you are a caring person and an intelligent person, so please just once do us all a favor and apply both of those attributes to what you write, yes?

A lack of belief in gods is a process of critical thinking applied, that's all. The truth is the truth and the fact that the people in South Central have been lied to both by man and by doctrine is what primarily keeps them in their place.

As I carefully deconstructed at your request and you avoided dealing with, the Beatitudes, for example, say, "sorry your lives are so f*cked, but guess what, if you do nothing to change your lot in this life, you'll win anything off the top shelf after you're dead!"

What f*cking good is that to a gang banger other than to convince them that their will be a chance for salvation after they are dead; allowing them to rationalize what they are doing for survival sake and Jesus will love them no matter what?

What you are talking about only serves to maintain the status quo not change it or give them any means whatsoever to take responsibility for their own actions!

It's "god's plan," is all your cult nonsense gives them; a false hope that convinces them that the more they suffer the more reward will be theirs after they're dead.

After they are dead, from whose borne no traveler returns!

That is the quintessential snake oil bullshit sham and it is literally incomprehensible to me that you can't see that!

Keep suffering in your place now all you ignorant peons and never realize your own potential in life and stand up and stop what is being forced upon you by a ruling elite because you're "blessed" and will be rewarded by that guy standing behind that curtain over there.

That's Jesus' salvation for South Central. Stay exactly as you are and turn your other cheek every goddamned day of your life and then once you're dead--and it no longer matters and your body can simply be bulldozed into a pit somewhere and forgotten--once you're dead, then you'll get a cookie!

It's as if you're agreeing with Jesus when he says, "Well, you're all f*cked, plain and simple, but while you suffer every day of your lives, here's a few childish platitudes and some blessings and a whole shitload of empty promises that will never have a hope of coming true, because you're all the bungled and the botched and that's just the way it is, but drink my blood and eat my body and you'll feel better for a couple of seconds on your pre-destined road to nowhere, all right? God loves you and he shows that love by randomly shooting bullets into your child's bedroom at night, but don't worry, because the more bullets that hit your five year old daughter, the more you'll be blessed so love your daughter's murderers. After all, you can't do jack shit about it because the meek shall inherit the earth and that's God's plan, ok? I gotta' go."

Like the men who wrote the New Testament and then convinced others that it was all true?

Ever read Invisible Man, by Ralph Ellison. Far more instructive for anyone capable of reading above, below and between the lines of his brilliant prose.

Except for the one institution that arguably keeps them down the most if it weren't for their remarkable ability to (as you have done) rewrite the book and simply throw away anything they don't like.

You know, like all of the stuff regarding the legitimacy and tacit divine sanction of slavery?

Well shucks Amos, you mean all us white folk?



Well, they should be grateful then, right?

Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven...!

Like..."Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny"?

Or how about..."Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Or more substantial like..."So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

Now isn't that just the most substantial possible plan for the people of South Central? Hunh? Isn't that just a great way to get out of the way of the bullets and away from the drugs? Seek first his kingdom and don't worry about tomorrow! Just stay right where you are, loving your enemies and accepting your fate.

Why? Because you are blessed for every bullet that hits your child, of course. It's God's plan and the Lord moves in mysterious ways!

Isn't that exactly what Jesus teaches, though?



You mean, people that say do nothing but drop to their knees when threatened and mumble prayers to a fictional creature that was programmed into their skulls from birth onward? Suckers that would say, turn the other cheek when struck? Or believe such things as "the meek shall inherit the earth?"

Are those the "suckers" you're referring to?

Yeah, who would want to be open to the fact that one is completely responsible for oneself and one's brothers and sisters, since there is no such thing as a god or gods who will save us all only after we're dead so we'd better all damn well help each other now?

Who would want to know that the "reward" for suffering in your place from birth to grave was a lie and that the threats of an eternal lake of fire for disbelief were nothing more than fear tactics to get you to accept without question the anti-dote to that poison?

Who would want to be told that prayer is going to do absolutely nothing for your children so you'd better take matters into your own hands and bond with your neighbors and group together with your community to stop victimization, instead of just feeling helpless because it's all God's plan and you're left in limbo between loving and hating your God for what he has and has not done; constantly frozen in a theological paradox that you just can't ever figure out so you just remain in cognitive dissonance you're entire life, forever trying to figure out why God could allow such things and why he doesn't just end all the suffering?

But you'll trust that he will, even though "he" doesn't exist and never did; was nothing more than a character in ancient mythology deliberately concocted by cult leaders to impress upon you the exact control mechanisms I've been arguing about here and elsewhere so that you always think of the cult first and your own life second.

Lock your minds here, good sheep, so that while you are suffering and remaining in your place and loving those who come to shear you, you'll think we're helping you when in fact we're doing nothing more than acting as the flash powder to distract you while our assistants lift your wallets and steal your watches.

And black is therefore white.

Thus endeth the lesson.

Amen.

Darkside_Spirit

To quote from George H Smith's Atheism: The Case Against God:

The benefit man has gained, and can gain, from seeking the truth, should be sufficient grounds for the rejection of theistic belief if it is found to be rationally unfounded.

luvluv

Briefly:

rainbow walking:

Move out of the ghettos! Brilliant! Why didn't those silly people ever think of that before?! Now all they need is the financial ability to move. But that's all small potatoes now that the great veil has been lifted. If only they could have come up with such an idea on their own!

Koy

For an atheist, you're an awfully strident Biblical literalist. Christianity is more than the words of the Bible. It is a historical tradition of evolving thought.

Christianity has a long history of social activism. I'm kind of tired of having to repeat myself to you on this issue, but here it goes again. Christianity was the primary force behind the civil rights movement in this country. The tactics and strategy of Dr. King were rooted in Christ's teachings. Obviously, one can turn the other cheek in non-violent protest, not simply in submission. I could go on and on, but I don't think there is a single institution that has worked harder for blacks in this country than the black church. (Have you ever read any of Martin Luther King's later works describing his war on poverty campaign? He was organizing sit-ins at hospitals, where the sick uninsured would simply clog up hospital rooms for weeks on end if need be until they recieved treatment. These were being organized around the country. He was also advocating similar sit-ins at supermarkets where the poor would simply clog up grocery stores until they were given the essentials they needed.) Whether we are talking about the Abolitionists, the leaders of the Reformation, civil rights workers, anti-death penalty advocates, and even things I disagree with like anti-abortion advocates and the religious right: Christians do not have a history of passivity.

The boldest and most active voices for freedom in Black America have all come from a religious perspective. From Nat Turner to Cornell West: you will not find in Christianity as it is expressed in Black America a willingness to lie down and accept mistreatment.

Your arguments against Christianity in this regard are self-refuting. The history of the very people we are discussing shows that your analysis is totally divorced from historical reality. It doesn't even deserve the distinction of being called a strawman, it is a demonstrably incorrect portrait of the history of the progress of blacks in this country. The only consistent force for change for blacks in this country has originated with the black man's own spirituality and this charge has been lead by the Black Christians.

The notion that we are made in the image of God, and therefore are just as much his children as anyone else, is the primary psycholgical and spiritual force that enabled blacks, from the earliest days of slavery, to refute the notion that they were inherently inferior beings. White supremacy was defeated by the notion of equality under God: There is no effective refutation of White Supremacy possible under the philosophy of naturallism or the theory of evolution. Outside of religion, there is no logical grounds that was available to blacks to refute the claims of white supremacy. Spirituality represented the only means from which Blacks were able to shield themselves from and ultimately combat the destructive power of the notion of their inherent inferiority. It is true that much of the notion of their inferiority was promulgated by other Christians (and scientists) but the refutation of that notion was almost entirely enabled by religion. Naturalism has no answer for racism: in a blindly mechanistic universe one has no reason to assume that one race of people cannot be superior to others. In fact, if naturalism is true, one would expect that to be the case.

Secondly, you assume that Christianity is not "working" because a persons surrondings aren't changed. I would first suggest, that Christianity must be "worked" itself before Christianity can be expected to produce results. That is to say, people have to actually struggle and fight for justice with Christ's principles before anything can change for the better through Christianity. Simply praying is not enough. This is why Jesus advocated social activism through the compassion taught in his principles and the example of active self-sacrifice in his life. It is up to the free moral agents who are Christian to put the gospel of Christ into action in remedying the nations ills, otherwise they don't really have a leg to stand on. When that was attempted, through Dr. King and others, it was a fantastic success. The philosophy of Christ, when applied to social circumstances, did work and worked far better than any tactic tried up to that point.

I would agree with you that prayer is not enough, but Christian activism is not limited by any theological pronouncement to prayer alone: faith without works is dead. When the people in depressed communities live out the esample of Christ change does come, and the change that has yet to be bourne is a result of the refusal of men to really live the gospel and apply it to their circumstances.

In absence of that, God is working in these circumstances because He is giving them hope. Even when things in these depressed situations are not getting better, they have hope that they will and that their fate is in the hands of a God who will provide.

As to whether the prayers of slaves and former slaves were answered, speaking personally, and for the 50-60% of Black Americans who have moved into the middle class in the last 50 or so years, I'd say those prayers have been answered remarkably well thank you very much. The prayers of my grandfather and grandmother were answered, as were the prayers of millions and millions of other African-Americans. And more will be answered if the people in depressed situations take up the responsibility to put Christ's words into action.

I guess that wasn't so brief.

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>

Ojuice5001

Luvluv,

You are right on regarding the link between naturalism and racism. Before naturalistic thought was applied to the human races, there was very little racism of the form believed by modern white supremacists. There was plenty of acceptance of cultural imperialism, and there was prejudice of the "hey, he looks kind of funny" kind, but there were no real theories that racial ancestry, as such, determined people's intelligence or the like.

I have to wonder what kind of political activism is appropriate for Roman paganism. I mean, obviously I should try to get people to believe in the Roman gods (if I can think of a way <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> ), but aside from that, what else would Jupiter and Postverta like me to do in society?

[ August 18, 2002: Message edited by: Ojuice5001 ]</p>

Vorkosigan

[QB]Briefly:
...of blacks in this country. The only consistent force for change for blacks in this country has originated with the black man's own spirituality and this charge has been lead by the Black Christians.

This is nonsense....

The notion that we are made in the image of God, and therefore are just as much his children as anyone else, is the primary psycholgical and spiritual force that enabled blacks, from the earliest days of slavery, to refute the notion that they were inherently inferior beings.

Hogwash. Christianity was one of the most effective weapons whites had; why do you think every slave was made Christian? It was heterodox Christians (like Quakers), Jews and Atheists who challenged slavery. All of the mainstream denominations supported it, and spun off dissident sects who opposed it. See the career of someone like Elizur White, for example.

White supremacy was defeated by the notion of equality under God: There is no effective refutation of White Supremacy possible under the philosophy of naturallism or the theory of evolution.

Luvluv, scientists, with their recognition that we are all one species, have been far more effective than Christians in striking down social darwinism. Long before Christians gave a shit, scientists like Boaz were working hard to get rid of stupd social darwinist ideas. Rewriting history doesn't advance your argument.

Outside of religion, there is no logical grounds that was available to blacks to refute the claims of white supremacy.

Perhaps you've never heard of science. It utterly refutes the concepts of "race" and "racial superiority." it gives strong grounds for demolishing that idea.

Spirituality represented the only means from which Blacks were able to shield themselves from and ultimately combat the destructive power of the notion of their inherent inferiority.

Spirituality was a potent force in putting blacks down. Ever heard of the sons of Ham? Most Christians in the 19th century accepted and worked to support slavery.

It is true that much of the notion of their inferiority was promulgated by other Christians (and scientists) but the refutation of that notion was almost entirely enabled by religion.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. A whole line of scientists worked hard to counter social darwinist and christian thinking. Currently the only pro-slavery political party in the US is of course Christian.

Naturalism has no answer for racism: in a blindly mechanistic universe one has no reason to assume that one race of people cannot be superior to others. In fact, if naturalism is true, one would expect that to be the case.

Luv -- what does "superior" mean? It's a subjective value. Naturalism says nothing about such values. What people make of the differences between human populations is their own business and has nothing to do with naturalism. Further, as you well know, "race" is not a scientific concept.

Vorkosigan

lcb

luv luv, who runs the medical mission clinic where you are? the feeding center? the soup kitchen? is it the atheists from the big university? the Christians from the local churches?

Aerik Von

It offers emptiness...and truth. Some of us don't need God to be moral.